Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with.

Cant imagine why

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

To get the cards into the plastic holder so they can be sold for more money than if they were left raw. Once a trimmed card gets a grade, it is for all intents and purposes not a trimmed card anymore.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

I think you can still sleep easy that they can spot a legit from a fake, now a unconserved from a conserved, eh.

j@ff dr*m

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

Graded I think is just where the hobby was by 2014 - I think it was to the point where seeing nice raw cards made you wonder why they weren't graded esp. with unfamiliar sellers. I don't like doing it, but I buy graded cards without a back scan and sometimes even when the scan of the front isn't great because the grade gives me an idea of the condition. Even when I've had instances where I was disappointed, I always keep the card, just not worth the hassle of the return for me. I think the TPGs are doing ok with the grading part, its the authentication part that's the issue. Maybe these two things should be broken out and done by different teams. One team should determine whether the card is genuine and if so whether it has been doctored. Then a completely different team put the number grade on it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

David,
If I could give you a fist bump I would.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

I have pondered this for years also, David. The best I can figure, the registry has continued to drive the PSA machine...which I know isn't news. Also, many people stopped collecting cards in exchange for flips a long time ago.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Agree with David... it’s criminal.

[frankbmd]

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table?

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table.

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.

Kinda

EDIT: Shoulda seen it coming. I posted before I got to the next line.

[Bigdaddy]

I've always been an Eagles fan (the band, not the football team) and methinks Glenn Frey hit the nail on the head when he sang (from Smuggler's Blues):

"thre's lots of shady characters
lots of dirty deals
ev'ry name's an alias
in case somebody squeals
it's the lure of easy money
it's gotta very strong appeal"

I think every line of this chorus applies to this mess. From PSA to PWCC to Moser and the other trimmers to eBay aliases and shilling to the exponential difference in prices of high grade cards (PSA 8-10). Though we own that last one.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've always been an Eagles fan (the band, not the football team) and methinks Glenn Frey hit the nail on the head when he sang (from Smuggler's Blues):

"thre's lots of shady characters
lots of dirty deals
ev'ry name's an alias
in case somebody squeals
it's the lure of easy money
it's gotta very strong appeal"

I think every line of this chorus applies to this mess. From PSA to PWCC to Moser and the other trimmers to eBay aliases and shilling to the exponential difference in prices of high grade cards (PSA 8-10). Though we own that last one.

its those smugggglers blues!!!!!

[bobbyw8469]

Oh lord...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2342


They really blew the color job on that one.