Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[Tennis13]

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

[perezfan]

NM

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

Paleo diet for me as well....

While it is an opportune window for SGC, I would REALLY love to see RAW trade at a premium. May never happen... but who better than us, to determine what looks best. Without "preferred" clients, severe time constraints and hoards of cards to sift through, most of us can blow the doors off those guys anyway!

[pokerplyr80]

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

Are you being serious?

[BobbyVCP]

Again for the 3rd time....
We did not remove or delete any images.

[Scott L.]

PWCC has 51 Bowmans of Mantle & Mays as well as 53 Mantle all PSA 7's closing tonight (amongst a bunch of other stuff). Will be interesting to see if final prices are affected at all.

My guess is no.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by BobbyVCP

Again for the 3rd time....
We did not remove or delete any images.

Bobby, VCP still has my total support. You guys are hands down the best price guide out there and I find your service extremely helpful and valuable.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by BobbyVCP

Again for the 3rd time....
We did not remove or delete any images.

I'm showing that the links to the prior auctions now only go back roughly 6 months, to December 2018.

Pretty sure last weekend there were links to all the prior auctions. I definitely know it went further back than December 2018 for auction houses like REA, Heritage, Memory Lane, etc. I honestly can't recall if the eBay auction links went back further than that, but I sort of recall that they did.

Something changed in regard to that, no?

[BobbyVCP]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm showing that the links to the prior auctions now only go back roughly 6 months, to December 2018.

Pretty sure last weekend there were links to all the prior auctions. I definitely know it went further back than December 2018 for auction houses like REA, Heritage, Memory Lane, etc. I honestly can't recall if the eBay auction links went back further than that, but I sort of recall that they did.

Something changed in regard to that, no?

Ebay links expire on VCP when they expire in eBay usually about 90 days. We did not change anything there just put back the buyers coded name again

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm showing that the links to the prior auctions now only go back roughly 6 months, to December 2018.

Pretty sure last weekend there were links to all the prior auctions. I definitely know it went further back than December 2018 for auction houses like REA, Heritage, Memory Lane, etc. I honestly can't recall if the eBay auction links went back further than that, but I sort of recall that they did.

Something changed in regard to that, no?

I just checked a random card and it goes back to 2006. Not sure what you are seeing. The links themselves never went back very far I don't think.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Are you being serious?

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable. Let's boycott pwcc, stop accepting their advertising money, but keep using PSA. Absurd.

And Bobby yes I realize that. My post was calling into question those calling for net54 members to cancel their subscriptions to your service. You explained how your site works. I am not tech savvy enough to understand it completely but as I do understand it if any scans were deleted it would have been because Ebay or someone else had them removed. And I don't even see evidence that happened.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It seems to me the issue is with PSA.

The issue is a TPG system that is overvalued by customers, because it delivers results that do not even come close to matching the expectations of those customers. Your PSA 4, SGC 50/4, BVG 4, etc. may have had its grade improved through means that you are not comfortable accepting. The odds of that being true may have always been the same — but that lingering doubt has become a large black cloud thanks to the visual “before-and-afters” that first ran like a wildfire through my signed T206 collection.

How many times have we read over the past few weeks a collector attempting to calm himself by exclaiming “That’s why I never collect anything above a PSA 5!” The truth is, if you have a graded card in your collection—a card graded at any level—the technology used by the TPG to certify that card as “unaltered” to you was woefully inadequate for making that certification, and the criminals do not have a grading threshold below which they are unwilling to go.

Go paleo. Collect what you like regardless of the TPG’s opinion. Try to hold onto any provenance you can grasp.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable. Let's boycott pwcc, stop accepting their advertising money, but keep using PSA. Absurd.

And Bobby yes I realize that. My post was calling into question those calling for net54 members to cancel their subscriptions to your service. You explained how your site works. I am not tech savvy enough to understand it completely but as I do understand it if any scans were deleted it would have been because Ebay or someone else had them removed. And I don't even see evidence that happened.

People are all over PSA and BGS. You don't have your eyes open, apparently. You're talking jibberish. I mean the post just 5 ahead of yours pointed out a boycott of PSA and BGS graded cards. Are we supposed to take you seriously.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

People are all over PSA and BGS. You don't have your eyes open, apparently. You're talking jibberish. I mean the post just 5 ahead of yours pointed out a boycott of PSA and BGS graded cards. Are we supposed to take you seriously.

You should read some of the other posts. And yes always take me seriously. Unless I'm joking.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable.

I'm not convinced you've read all the threads if you don't think PSA is being criticized. There's plenty of anger directed both at PSA and BGS for letting these cards through. Yes, there is somewhat more focus on PWCC at some level, but they're also the only ones who have said anything official since this all started.

If you have read through most of those threads, are you really not at least persuaded that PWCC is involved in this in some way or another, and very likely pretty significantly involved in it? There are HUNDREDS of cards at this point that were sold by PWCC, to a known bad actor, that reappear in later PWCC auctions in higher graded slabs. But I guess that's all just all coincidence? That's just one person that has a pretty significant internet paper trail, but there are others that also getting exposed and others still that are being researched.

The below are statements directly from Brent's posts on alteration/conservation/tenets - these are his posts, they're not made up.

Bold is mine to point out the statements that are essentially an admission of their working with these people in the past, including the final line which based on my reading says they knew they were dealing with people who had previously been banned at TPGs from submitting. Some of what has been published so far sure seems to indicate that PWCC was responsible for submitting raw cards to PSA on behalf of these individuals since the consignors couldn't do it themselves.

Is there any other way to read these statements than to conclude that PWCC knew these people and knew these cards were running through their auctions in massive quantities?

Maybe all this isn't good enough in a courtroom, but it's pretty clear what happened here.

"We at PWCC will not tolerate our brand’s use as a front for bad behavior. That day is over. Today is a new day, based on facts and enforceable policies for which we expect the entire market to hold us accountable...

PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based. We will collaborate with the grading companies to ensure bad actors are flagged, uniformly known, and that all is done to prevent them from affecting our market. PWCC will not work with any individuals whom the grading companies have banned, regardless of their individual track record with PWCC."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm not convinced you've read all the threads if you don't think PSA is being criticized. There's plenty of anger directed both at PSA and BGS for letting these cards through. Yes, there is somewhat more focus on PWCC at some level, but they're also the only ones who have said anything official since this all started.

If you have read through most of those threads, are you really not at least persuaded that PWCC is involved in this in some way or another, and very likely pretty significantly involved in it? There are HUNDREDS of cards at this point that were sold by PWCC, to a known bad actor, that reappear in later PWCC auctions in higher graded slabs. But I guess that's all just all coincidence? That's just one person that has a pretty significant internet paper trail, but there are others that also getting exposed and others still that are being researched.

The below are statements directly from Brent's posts on alteration/conservation/tenets - these are his posts, they're not made up.

Bold is mine to point out the statements that are essentially an admission of their working with these people in the past, including the final line which based on my reading says they knew they were dealing with people who had previously been banned at TPGs from submitting. Some of what has been published so far sure seems to indicate that PWCC was responsible for submitting raw cards to PSA on behalf of these individuals since the consignors couldn't do it themselves.

Is there any other way to read these statements than to conclude that PWCC knew these people and knew these cards were running through their auctions in massive quantities?

Maybe all this isn't good enough in a courtroom, but it's pretty clear what happened here.

"We at PWCC will not tolerate our brand’s use as a front for bad behavior. That day is over. Today is a new day, based on facts and enforceable policies for which we expect the entire market to hold us accountable...

PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based. We will collaborate with the grading companies to ensure bad actors are flagged, uniformly known, and that all is done to prevent them from affecting our market. PWCC will not work with any individuals whom the grading companies have banned, regardless of their individual track record with PWCC."

I am sure there are many people who could testify based on direct dealings that he knew.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

Agree w/you! Not everything is a conspiracy. I appreciate Bobby of VCP being on this board and explaining what happened to him and his business. I could be a fool later but the responses make sense to me! No reason to cancel anything except a PWCC bid at this point!

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by trambo

Agree w/you! Not everything is a conspiracy. I appreciate Bobby of VCP being on this board and explaining what happened to him and his business. I could be a fool later but the responses make sense to me! No reason to cancel anything except a PWCC bid at this point!

Troy, I wouldn’t go so far to call you a fool, but let’s see how you feel when Bobby and VCP are proven not to be telling the truth. I just feel badly Bobby allowed himself to unnecessarily become apart of this but I will have to assume his relationship with Brent trumped common sense.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Troy, I wouldn’t go so far to call you a fool, but let’s see how you feel when Bobby and VCP are proven not to be telling the truth. I just feel badly Bobby allowed himself to unnecessarily become apart of this but I will have to assume his relationship with Brent trumped common sense.

I'd hope you wouldn't call me or anyone else a fool and we can certainly agree to disagree but when all of this is sorted out, I'm happy to say I'm wrong if I am just as I hope you are.

No doubt there's some bad stuff happening here but it's likely not at the feet of VCP. With the explanations given by VCP on this thread, I just can't see why the VCP people would risk all of their business for something which is likely rounding to the P&L statement. All of the explanations seem reasonable to me but I can appreciate not everyone shares my viewpoint. We'll see what happens!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by trambo

I'd hope you wouldn't call me or anyone else a fool and we can certainly agree to disagree but when all of this is sorted out, I'm happy to say I'm wrong if I am just as I hope you are.

No doubt there's some bad stuff happening here but it's likely not at the feet of VCP. With the explanations given by VCP on this thread, I just can't see why the VCP people would risk all of their business for something which is likely rounding to the P&L statement. All of the explanations seem reasonable to me but I can appreciate not everyone shares my viewpoint. We'll see what happens!

I don't know the tech side of it but I don't see any glaring holes in Bobby's explanations either. Are people saying he somehow sabotaged only one seller's scans, only their back scans, and only for certain years? And all to aid in the coverup of fraud?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't know the tech side of it but I don't see any glaring holes in Bobby's explanations either. Are people saying he somehow sabotaged only one seller's scans, only their back scans, and only for certain years?

PWCC created a sales history section on their own website last year (Market history?). I noticed that when they did this some of the older PWCC scans that were on VCP went blank. I specifically recall this because I thought PWCC might be trying to take some of VCP's business for itself. It could be that when PWCC added the new section the location of the scan files changed and they were cut off from VCP software? There seems to be a couple of people who want the scan removal to be a conspiracy though.