Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?

oldjudge · #1 01-24-2019, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So what.

Are you telling me that if you had one of the 10 best pitchers of all time on your team you would only let him pitch 70 innings a season, most (if not all) coming in when you had a lead?

Seriously?

He was really really good, probably the best, at the job he was asked to do, I'll acknowledge that, but top 10 of all pitchers all time?

Come on.

Doug "Roy Gleason has a lifetime batting average of 1.000, slugging percentage of 2.000 and OPS of 3.000" Goodman

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

alywa · #2 01-24-2019, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

So long as it wasn't Edgar Martinez

Martinez vs. Rivera (includes postseason): .579 / .652 / .1.053 in 23 plate appearances

doug.goodman · #3 01-24-2019, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alywa

So long as it wasn't Edgar Martinez

Martinez vs. Rivera (includes postseason): .579 / .652 / .1.053 in 23 plate appearances

You beat me to that one...

Nolan was the "Edgar killer", he was 1-19, with a walk

oldjudge · #4 01-24-2019, 02:46 PM

There was a great article in the WSJ sports section yesterday about Rivera and his matchups with Martinez. Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties. After that Edgar hit .200 against him in limited plate appearances. BTW, every pitcher has someone who owned him: Pujols hit .452 against Randy Johnson, Marquis Grissom hit .565 against Pedro, Shawn Green hit .543 against Smoltz. Ty Cobb hit .366 against Walter Johnson which was essentially his career average against all pitchers. Does that mean that Johnson was no better than an average pitcher? Well, against Cobb that was true, but obviously not true for most other batters.

Ricky · #5 01-24-2019, 02:57 PM

"Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties."

Wait - I thought Mariano supporters are saying he only had one pitch and although everyone knew that one pitch was coming, they couldn't hit it?

Shoeless Moe · #6 01-24-2019, 03:13 PM

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/9...oved-respected

oldjudge · #7 01-24-2019, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/9...oved-respected

2013 article by a writer who was later fired by ESPN. I think he is now blogging about golf and will probably soon be left to bashing high school cheerleader competitors.

doug.goodman · #8 01-24-2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/9...oved-respected

Nailed it.

chalupacollects · #9 01-26-2019, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

There was a great article in the WSJ sports section yesterday about Rivera and his matchups with Martinez. Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties. After that Edgar hit .200 against him in limited plate appearances. BTW, every pitcher has someone who owned him: Pujols hit .452 against Randy Johnson, Marquis Grissom hit .565 against Pedro, Shawn Green hit .543 against Smoltz. Ty Cobb hit .366 against Walter Johnson which was essentially his career average against all pitchers. Does that mean that Johnson was no better than an average pitcher? Well, against Cobb that was true, but obviously not true for most other batters.

And Mike Piazza owned Roger Clemens who eventually showed his appreciation for that...

Al C.risafulli · #10 01-26-2019, 12:00 PM

Opinion:

The save is a stupid stat. But so is the win. Both depend on your team creating a circumstance that has nothing to do with you.

I also think comparing Rivera to a starting pitcher and saying the starting pitcher is better because he has to pitch longer is irrelevant.

Point being: starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in 60 or 70 games in a season like closers are. Starting pitchers aren't asked to repeatedly pitch with the game on the line, in "close and late" situations. Starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in NINETY-SIX postseason games over the course of their career. But you won't catch me using any of those facts to denigrate a starting pitcher.

What's great is that we have statistics that can measure all pitchers and level the playing field. Stuff like ERA, WHIP, SO/W, etc. And in all those fields, Mariano Rivera has numbers that stack up with the greats of the game. A postseason ERA of 0.70 in 141 innings, with a WHIP of 0.759, against the top competition is a world-class achievement. It's greatness under extreme pressure, over 16 years. No other player has even come close.

Saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Mariano Rivera" is no different that saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Ted Williams?" Mariano Rivera was not a starting pitcher. He also was not a shortstop, a left fielder, or a manager. So why compare him to something he wasn't?

If you changed the question to "If you had to choose a single pitcher to get all the important outs for his team, for an entire season, who would it be?" change your answer? Because I don't see Sandy Koufax excelling in that situation. Nobody dominated like Koufax, but no way he could pitch at that level two or three days in a row, no way he could pitch on one day's rest. His arm would fall off by June.

If I had to win one game, I might have a handful of pitchers I'd chose. If I had to get a big stolen base in a tough situation, I might bring in Jackie Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Vince Coleman. If I needed a three-run home run, I might bring up Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays. If I needed a single to drive in the game-winning run, maybe I'd pick Rose, Cobb, Boggs, Gwynn, Keeler, or some other contact hitter.

But if I needed to close out a game, there's only one guy I'd pick. One guy. And I'd pick him every time, under every circumstance, and I think most would agree. And that makes him the greatest ever.

When we're answering the question "who was the greatest hitter ever?" we don't factor Ty Cobb out of the equation because he didn't hit home runs. We don't factor Ted Williams out of the equation because his defense was suspect. We're just asking who was the greatest HITTER.

Similarly, we're asking here, "who was the greatest pitcher?" And if Mo's career numbers: 2.21 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, plus the aforementioned postseason numbers - don't clearly position him among the greatest pitchers of all-time, I'm not sure what does.

-Al

conor912 · #11 01-26-2019, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

The save is a stupid stat. But so is the win. Both depend on your team creating a circumstance that has nothing to do with you.

This.

Does he belong in the Hall? Probably. But what I'm still scratching my head at is that he's the first unanimous guy ever, in the history of the game. How the f*** did that happen?

Peter_Spaeth · #12 01-26-2019, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Opinion:

The save is a stupid stat. But so is the win. Both depend on your team creating a circumstance that has nothing to do with you.

I also think comparing Rivera to a starting pitcher and saying the starting pitcher is better because he has to pitch longer is irrelevant.

Point being: starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in 60 or 70 games in a season like closers are. Starting pitchers aren't asked to repeatedly pitch with the game on the line, in "close and late" situations. Starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in NINETY-SIX postseason games over the course of their career. But you won't catch me using any of those facts to denigrate a starting pitcher.

What's great is that we have statistics that can measure all pitchers and level the playing field. Stuff like ERA, WHIP, SO/W, etc. And in all those fields, Mariano Rivera has numbers that stack up with the greats of the game. A postseason ERA of 0.70 in 141 innings, with a WHIP of 0.759, against the top competition is a world-class achievement. It's greatness under extreme pressure, over 16 years. No other player has even come close.

Saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Mariano Rivera" is no different that saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Ted Williams?" Mariano Rivera was not a starting pitcher. He also was not a shortstop, a left fielder, or a manager. So why compare him to something he wasn't?

If you changed the question to "If you had to choose a single pitcher to get all the important outs for his team, for an entire season, who would it be?" change your answer? Because I don't see Sandy Koufax excelling in that situation. Nobody dominated like Koufax, but no way he could pitch at that level two or three days in a row, no way he could pitch on one day's rest. His arm would fall off by June.

If I had to win one game, I might have a handful of pitchers I'd chose. If I had to get a big stolen base in a tough situation, I might bring in Jackie Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Vince Coleman. If I needed a three-run home run, I might bring up Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays. If I needed a single to drive in the game-winning run, maybe I'd pick Rose, Cobb, Boggs, Gwynn, Keeler, or some other contact hitter.

But if I needed to close out a game, there's only one guy I'd pick. One guy. And I'd pick him every time, under every circumstance, and I think most would agree. And that makes him the greatest ever.

When we're answering the question "who was the greatest hitter ever?" we don't factor Ty Cobb out of the equation because he didn't hit home runs. We don't factor Ted Williams out of the equation because his defense was suspect. We're just asking who was the greatest HITTER.

Similarly, we're asking here, "who was the greatest pitcher?" And if Mo's career numbers: 2.21 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, plus the aforementioned postseason numbers - don't clearly position him among the greatest pitchers of all-time, I'm not sure what does.

-Al

If picking the greatest hitter ever, would you include someone who exclusively pinch hit but had a .400 lifetime average in 25 percent as many at bats as an everyday player? That's the better analogy, and I am guessing the answer is no.

Vintageclout · #13 01-26-2019, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Opinion:

The save is a stupid stat. But so is the win. Both depend on your team creating a circumstance that has nothing to do with you.

I also think comparing Rivera to a starting pitcher and saying the starting pitcher is better because he has to pitch longer is irrelevant.

Point being: starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in 60 or 70 games in a season like closers are. Starting pitchers aren't asked to repeatedly pitch with the game on the line, in "close and late" situations. Starting pitchers aren't asked to appear in NINETY-SIX postseason games over the course of their career. But you won't catch me using any of those facts to denigrate a starting pitcher.

What's great is that we have statistics that can measure all pitchers and level the playing field. Stuff like ERA, WHIP, SO/W, etc. And in all those fields, Mariano Rivera has numbers that stack up with the greats of the game. A postseason ERA of 0.70 in 141 innings, with a WHIP of 0.759, against the top competition is a world-class achievement. It's greatness under extreme pressure, over 16 years. No other player has even come close.

Saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Mariano Rivera" is no different that saying "If you had to win one game, who would you pitch: Sandy Koufax, or Ted Williams?" Mariano Rivera was not a starting pitcher. He also was not a shortstop, a left fielder, or a manager. So why compare him to something he wasn't?

If you changed the question to "If you had to choose a single pitcher to get all the important outs for his team, for an entire season, who would it be?" change your answer? Because I don't see Sandy Koufax excelling in that situation. Nobody dominated like Koufax, but no way he could pitch at that level two or three days in a row, no way he could pitch on one day's rest. His arm would fall off by June.

If I had to win one game, I might have a handful of pitchers I'd chose. If I had to get a big stolen base in a tough situation, I might bring in Jackie Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Vince Coleman. If I needed a three-run home run, I might bring up Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays. If I needed a single to drive in the game-winning run, maybe I'd pick Rose, Cobb, Boggs, Gwynn, Keeler, or some other contact hitter.

But if I needed to close out a game, there's only one guy I'd pick. One guy. And I'd pick him every time, under every circumstance, and I think most would agree. And that makes him the greatest ever.

When we're answering the question "who was the greatest hitter ever?" we don't factor Ty Cobb out of the equation because he didn't hit home runs. We don't factor Ted Williams out of the equation because his defense was suspect. We're just asking who was the greatest HITTER.

Similarly, we're asking here, "who was the greatest pitcher?" And if Mo's career numbers: 2.21 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, plus the aforementioned postseason numbers - don't clearly position him among the greatest pitchers of all-time, I'm not sure what does.

-Al

Al - hi it’s JoeT and I hope all is well. I am going to try and simplify this for everyone the best I can. More than not, without a fine performance from a starting pitcher, there is typically no game to save. Rivera’s capabilities would be rendered useless because there is no lead to protect. That’s the MAJOR disparity between a starter and a closer. A closer is typically dependent on his team’s prior pitchers making a game of it. A good starting pitcher sets the tempo for the game, with superb performances typically dictating the results. A closer has ZERO control over that. And, like I’ve said in other posts, the pre-1980 great pitchers didn’t need a closer for the most part because they finished their games. Honestly Al, I can barely remember games that pitchers like Gibson, Koufax, Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Marichal, Hunter, etc. blew leads in the 9th inning. They went out for the 9th innings and closed out their own games. Based on that notion, how anyone can possibly compare a 1-inning pitcher to these incredible starters that went the distance is beyond reason. Makes zero sense. Closers are totally dependent on their teams putting them in a position to save a game, and the starting pitcher usually bears a large portion of that burden.

doug.goodman · #14 01-24-2019, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

What I am telling you is that if YOU had a GAME you needed to win, and you could choose any pitcher, you WOULD NOT choose Mariano to be anywhere near the mound until after your team had played 8 innings AND given him a lead.

packs · #15 01-24-2019, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

What I am telling you is that if YOU had a GAME you needed to win, and you could choose any pitcher, you WOULD NOT choose Mariano to be anywhere near the mound until after your team had played 8 innings AND given him a lead.

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

Peter_Spaeth · #16 01-24-2019, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

No more so than in any other inning.

3 in the first count the same as 3 in the ninth. Etc.

packs · #17 01-24-2019, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No more so than in any other inning.

3 in the first count the same as 3 in the ninth. Etc.

Is that right? I don't remember a game ending after someone got 3 outs in the first inning.

doug.goodman · #18 01-24-2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Is that right? I don't remember a game ending after someone got 3 outs in the first inning.

But it could end in the 6th, and Mariano wouldn't be warmed up...

So I guess your point is that the 9th inning is more important than the 1st inning?

Ok.

I respectfully disagree.

packs · #19 01-24-2019, 03:33 PM

My point is the 9th inning wins you the game. You can talk about the 6th inning all you want. You aren't going to win the game because someone pitched well 3 innings ago. You only win after the 9th.

Ricky · #20 01-24-2019, 03:34 PM

packs, how do you think Rivera would have fared as a starting pitcher? How long would he have been able to maintain a peak performance as a starter? Would he have been as effective going 7 or 8 innings?

And, if you're all about the 9th inning, what if Rivera had pitched for a team that had the lead to protect much less frequently than the Yankees?

packs · #21 01-24-2019, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky

packs, how do you think Rivera would have fared as a starting pitcher? How long would he have been able to maintain a peak performance as a starter? Would he have been as effective going 7 or 8 innings?

And, if you're all about the 9th inning, what if Rivera had pitched for a team that had the lead to protect much less frequently than the Yankees?

None of that matters. You don't win the game without closing out the 9th inning. The question is who is the pitcher you want on the mound for the most important inning of the game. The answer is Mariano Rivera.

rats60 · #22 01-24-2019, 03:41 PM

I would have these guys ahead of Rivera
Grover Alexander
Steve Carlton
Dizzy Dean
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Juan Marichal
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
Jim Palmer
Eddie Plank
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Cy Young

So #22 on my list.

doug.goodman · #23 01-24-2019, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

Not if you allow 112 runs in the third inning...

View Poll Results: Is Mariano Rivera among the top 10 pitchers of all time
Yes	52	14.17%
No	315	85.83%
Voters: 367. You may not vote on this poll

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