Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?

[packs]

I think we can agree on this point: getting the win and winning the game are not the same thing.

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by packs

I think we can agree on this point: getting the win and winning the game are not the same thing.

You can't win the game if the pitcher(s) before you don't put you in that position. I think you are in a deep minority in considering Mariano the greatest pitcher of all time, but as you are obviously a diehard Yankees fan, I do understand it. As much as I appreciate what he accomplished over a long time in his role, I can't consider a one inning pitcher who probably would have failed miserably and not lasted anywhere near as long had he been asked to throw 250 innings a year, the greatest pitcher of all time. Not up against starting pitchers who, in many cases, were as dominant or moreso in their roles as he was.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

I think we can agree on this point: getting the win and winning the game are not the same thing.

I will grant you the point that they are different things, and Mariano wasn't good at either of them.

"Saving" the win (when bolstered by a 90% chance of winning due to the game situation when he pitched) is something that Mariano was good at.

"Getting the win" or "winning the game" not so much.

[packs]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I will grant you the point that they are different things, and Mariano wasn't good at either of them.

"Saving" the win (when bolstered by a 90% chance of winning due to the game situation when he pitched) is something that Mariano was good at.

"Getting the win" or "winning the game" not so much.

I see those numbers listed in the article but I still don't understand where they come from. I posted this the other day. The highest save percentage for a team in 2018 was only 75 %. So where does that 90% chance of winning come from? The league average for all of MLB was only 66%.

http://proxy.espn.com/mlb/stats/team...ded&order=true

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

I see those numbers listed in the article but I still don't understand where they come from. I posted this the other day. The highest save percentage for a team in 2018 was only 75 %. So where does that 90% chance of winning come from? The league average for all of MLB was only 66%.

http://proxy.espn.com/mlb/stats/team...ded&order=true

It comes in your beloved 9th inning, when a team goes in while leading.

[packs]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

It comes in your beloved 9th inning, when a team goes in while leading.

Then why is there such a disparity between what the article says and what actual yearly stats show from one season re: save percentage? Are you saying that the majority of those save percentage opportunities came with something other than a lead?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

Then why is there such a disparity between what the article says and what actual yearly stats show from one season re: save percentage? Are you saying that the majority of those save percentage opportunities came with something other than a lead?

Not every win has a save attached to it.

[packs]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Not every win has a save attached to it.

But when it does, the average for all teams saving the game is only 66%. So I don't really know what you're talking about when you try to diminish Rivera's ability to save the game.

[BearBailey]

No, not even close.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

No, not even close.

Quoting what you are responding to keeps the rest of us from reading your response and thinking "huh?"

[BearBailey]

When posting to the original question of is Mariano a top 10 pitcher and not to a quote, there will be no quote attached.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

When posting to the original question of is Mariano a top 10 pitcher and not to a quote, there will be no quote attached.

Ahha! Good point.

Doug

[Bigdaddy]

Trying to compare a starting pitcher and a relief pitcher is like trying to compare a first baseman with a shortstop. They are both infielders, but are asked to do two very different things.

Would you vote Lou Gehrig as the best infielder ever? Over Wags, Ripken, Brooks, Schmitty, etc?? Why, he didn't even have to throw the ball.

Of course not, they are two different positions, but both infielders. Just like relievers and starters are both pitchers, but different positions.

This is a baited question. It should be: Was Mo the greatest reliever ever?

The game changes. Roles change. Relief pitchers are now not just failed starters, designated hitters are a thing. And we are seeing even more changes with more defensive shifts, hitters swinging for the fence, higher strikeout numbers, managers handling pitchers differently, off-season conditioning, etc.

Mo was the greatest at what he did. He shortened the game to 8 innings for the Yankees on defense. He wasn't a starter any more than he was a shortstop. So don't try to compare him to one.

BTW, I voted 'no' on this question, but I think it was the wrong question.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

...but I think it was the wrong question.

I agree with everything you said accept the last part. Based on conversations taking place since his unanimous induction it was a valid question, posed not so much to elicit a response but to make a point.

And I agree with your vote.