Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?

[oldjudge]

People keep saying that batters only saw Mariano once a game. That is true, but they often saw him multiple times a series and he basically threw one pitch. They knew what was coming—they just couldn’t hit it.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

People keep saying that batters only saw Mariano once a game. That is true, but they often saw him multiple times a series and he basically threw one pitch. They knew what was coming—they just couldn’t hit it.

So what.

Are you telling me that if you had one of the 10 best pitchers of all time on your team you would only let him pitch 70 innings a season, most (if not all) coming in when you had a lead?

Seriously?

He was really really good, probably the best, at the job he was asked to do, I'll acknowledge that, but top 10 of all pitchers all time?

Come on.

Doug "Roy Gleason has a lifetime batting average of 1.000, slugging percentage of 2.000 and OPS of 3.000" Goodman

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So what.

Are you telling me that if you had one of the 10 best pitchers of all time on your team you would only let him pitch 70 innings a season, most (if not all) coming in when you had a lead?

Seriously?

He was really really good, probably the best, at the job he was asked to do, I'll acknowledge that, but top 10 of all pitchers all time?

Come on.

Doug "Roy Gleason has a lifetime batting average of 1.000, slugging percentage of 2.000 and OPS of 3.000" Goodman

agree with this!

[alywa]

Off the top of my head...

Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Grove, Koufax, Gibson, Ryan, Carlton, Seaver, Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Kershaw

Best reliever of all time though

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So what.

Are you telling me that if you had one of the 10 best pitchers of all time on your team you would only let him pitch 70 innings a season, most (if not all) coming in when you had a lead?

Seriously?

He was really really good, probably the best, at the job he was asked to do, I'll acknowledge that, but top 10 of all pitchers all time?

Come on.

Doug "Roy Gleason has a lifetime batting average of 1.000, slugging percentage of 2.000 and OPS of 3.000" Goodman

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

[alywa]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

So long as it wasn't Edgar Martinez

Martinez vs. Rivera (includes postseason): .579 / .652 / .1.053 in 23 plate appearances

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by alywa

So long as it wasn't Edgar Martinez

Martinez vs. Rivera (includes postseason): .579 / .652 / .1.053 in 23 plate appearances

You beat me to that one...

Nolan was the "Edgar killer", he was 1-19, with a walk

[oldjudge]

There was a great article in the WSJ sports section yesterday about Rivera and his matchups with Martinez. Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties. After that Edgar hit .200 against him in limited plate appearances. BTW, every pitcher has someone who owned him: Pujols hit .452 against Randy Johnson, Marquis Grissom hit .565 against Pedro, Shawn Green hit .543 against Smoltz. Ty Cobb hit .366 against Walter Johnson which was essentially his career average against all pitchers. Does that mean that Johnson was no better than an average pitcher? Well, against Cobb that was true, but obviously not true for most other batters.

[Ricky]

"Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties."

Wait - I thought Mariano supporters are saying he only had one pitch and although everyone knew that one pitch was coming, they couldn't hit it?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

There was a great article in the WSJ sports section yesterday about Rivera and his matchups with Martinez. Edgar owned him early on till Mariano developed a sinker that broke in to righties. After that Edgar hit .200 against him in limited plate appearances. BTW, every pitcher has someone who owned him: Pujols hit .452 against Randy Johnson, Marquis Grissom hit .565 against Pedro, Shawn Green hit .543 against Smoltz. Ty Cobb hit .366 against Walter Johnson which was essentially his career average against all pitchers. Does that mean that Johnson was no better than an average pitcher? Well, against Cobb that was true, but obviously not true for most other batters.

And Mike Piazza owned Roger Clemens who eventually showed his appreciation for that...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What I am telling you is that if I had one batter to get out and I could choose any pitcher to do it I would choose Mariano.

What I am telling you is that if YOU had a GAME you needed to win, and you could choose any pitcher, you WOULD NOT choose Mariano to be anywhere near the mound until after your team had played 8 innings AND given him a lead.

[packs]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

What I am telling you is that if YOU had a GAME you needed to win, and you could choose any pitcher, you WOULD NOT choose Mariano to be anywhere near the mound until after your team had played 8 innings AND given him a lead.

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

No more so than in any other inning.

3 in the first count the same as 3 in the ninth. Etc.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No more so than in any other inning.

3 in the first count the same as 3 in the ninth. Etc.

Is that right? I don't remember a game ending after someone got 3 outs in the first inning.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

Let me ask you something: do you win the game in the 9th inning or not?

Not if you allow 112 runs in the third inning...

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

People keep saying that batters only saw Mariano once a game. That is true, but they often saw him multiple times a series and he basically threw one pitch. They knew what was coming—they just couldn’t hit it.

…for a few years, Sutter had that effect, but he was never considered the GOAT or even in the pasture.


Rivera added longevity, but he was still just a one-inning master, perhaps the best one-inning pitcher ever.

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Some of the best starters could be just as dominant the first time through the lineup...even so-so pitchers could even be that dominant early in the game on in a while.


True that Rivera did it time and time again, but...

How many times did any one hitter get to face Rivera more than once in the same game?

I'll bet the answer is very few.

Hitting at the big league level requires one to adjust from at-bat to at-bat.

Starting pitchers also have to adjust from at-bat to at-bat.

One-Inning pitchers, even their GOAT, never have to make that adjustment.

=

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

How many times did any one hitter get to face Rivera more than once in the same game? =

According to Baseball Reference, as a reliever he faced 68 batters a second time in a game and 2 batters a third time.