Money in the hobby

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by glchen

Barry, I completely see what you are saying here, and I agree with a lot of it. However, there are a lot of different ways that I could answer this question. However, to focus on the cards that are going for 6 figures, I'll put it this way. The people who are buying these cards go to shows or events like the PSA luncheons and see other collectors like them, and they trust that other rich people like them (e.g., Ken Kendrick, etc) are buying cards, so they know that it's not just them in this market. When they sell their cards, they get paid real cash, real money with no restrictions like you can't sell for 2 years. They see the card prices going up based upon VCP, past auction sales, or other ways that are easily accessible. And which cards are going up the fastest? The ones with the highest number on the flips, which makes perfect sense to them because rich people collect the highest quality collectibles.

I understand herd mentality, and everyone assumes the card they buy will be just as desirable when it comes time to sell. But I still have trouble with how much faith is put on that label.

If you have 1952 Topps Mantle that grades PSA 8, and you are able to convince the grader that it deserves an extra ".5" on the label- not a full grade, but a half grade- that grader has just created a half a million dollars of wealth out of thin area. How did such a market evolve? Something about this simply escapes me.

And Peter S. is correct that the label, and not the card, is the commodity (and I love Wallace Stevens).

[Peter_Spaeth]

For 10 points Barry name the poem, no cheating.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points Barry name the poem, no cheating.

Is it "The Emperor of Ice Cream"? It's just a guess.

[oldjudge]

"when you consider that the 1903 E107 Mathewson in the REA auction, which went for $144,000, was a $900- $1000 item in 1995--thus increasing in value around 150 times in just over ....."

Larry-I'm not sure where you are getting your 1995 number from. In the mid-1990s I won a beat to hell Mathewson E107 in a David Festberg auction for $2000. When I got it I found that the condition was even worse than described and I called David to say I was returning it. His response? No problem--the under bidder was Larry Fritsch and he'll take it.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

"when you consider that the 1903 E107 Mathewson in the REA auction, which went for $144,000, was a $900- $1000 item in 1995--thus increasing in value around 150 times in just over ....."

Larry-I'm not sure where you are getting your 1995 number from. In the mid-1990s I won a beat to hell Mathewson E107 in a David Festberg auction for $2000. When I got it I found that the condition was even worse than described and I called David to say I was returning it. His response? No problem--the under bidder was Larry Fritsch and he'll take it.

I'm just going by a guide issued in 1995 which I have found to be pretty reliable on a consistent basis. But a guide is just a guide. It would not surprise me at all to learn that several very knowledgeable collectors such as yourself and Fritsch would go well over guide when they knew how rare and significant that card was. I purchased a 1925 Gehrig rookie at the '98 National in ungraded VG for $500, and the seller almost begged me to take it at that price. After I verified its' authenticity with my 16X loupe, he really didn't have to try so hard, since I had other information that they had been changing hands at $1100 in the same grade around that time. I hope you kept it!!!

May your collecting bring you bliss,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Is it "The Emperor of Ice Cream"? It's just a guess.

Postcard from the Volcano

[barrysloate]

Don't know that one...now I have to spend the whole weekend reading Wallace Stevens.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I understand herd mentality, and everyone assumes the card they buy will be just as desirable when it comes time to sell. But I still have trouble with how much faith is put on that label.

If you have 1952 Topps Mantle that grades PSA 8, and you are able to convince the grader that it deserves an extra ".5" on the label- not a full grade, but a half grade- that grader has just created a half a million dollars of wealth out of thin area. How did such a market evolve? Something about this simply escapes me.

Some people put 100 percent certainty in something with 15 percent margin of error. But, really, their concern is financial value. The owner may be well aware of the margin of error in grading and the possibility of alterations, but all that matters is the financial value-- and if others invest in the label, then the label is what matters.

[glchen]

Barry, I don't disagree with you at all in regards to the flips, but for collectibles, people often defer to these so called experts in those fields even when buying extremely expensive things. When someone says that a wine receives a certain rating or the vintage that year was particularly excellent, do most of us have any idea what they are talking about? When some "expert" says this modern art painting is part of the new avant garde in the field right now and is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, do those people who buy those paintings really have any idea what they are buying? And many collectors may come from collecting coins, where these same issues have been rehashed over and over again. I'm not saying I agree with it but just trying to explain how we got here.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by glchen

Barry, I don't disagree with you at all in regards to the flips, but for collectibles, people often defer to these so called experts in those fields even when buying extremely expensive things.

And there are so many other third party experts out there involved in so many other areas of life. Buying a house, for instance, often includes multiple third party experts, such as realtors, assessors and inspectors. Many people consult the Kelley Blue Book (or similar publications) when buying a car. These type of experts, who help establish the condition and comparables of an item, are common in lots of places.

I do "get" the animosity towards TPGs, towards the money in the hobby, etc. but in the end, sports cards aren't just investments or tokens of our childhood or connections to the game, etc. Collecting cards (or whatever) is different things for different people, and perhaps many things for some, and that makes the hobby more nuanced and interesting, to me.

[kailes2872]

While I like the safety of the entombment of the card and the fact that the condition is locked forever (in theory - deterioration from chemicals as the possible exception), if I had my choice I would have them all raw so I could enjoy them in binders and look at them on a daily basis. As it stands, it take front/back photocopies of the graded cards - usually the high value superstars - with a label that shoes the grade, registration number and SMR and put it back in the binder

However, I have had too many circumstances where I have had a raw card talked down When I am selling - Ex becomes VG - and then pumped up When I am buying EX becomes NM. Of course, even with the standardization and commoditization of the flip/slab, most don't want to pay more than 70-75% of the VCP amount so I am not sure how far we have come.

Therefore, I buy graded cards primarily to protect my spouse/family in the case something happens to me. As that way there is a cost basis to work off of for the big stuff.

Based upon my budget/discretionary income, I buy mostly 6's and 7's. I'd love to have 8's but I can't justify the 4x price of a 6 for the incremental visual appeal over a strong 6. But to those who can - God bless and more power to you.

[dodgerfanjohn]

A similar thread came up on the psa forums a few years ago with a supposed "buying group" manipulated some elements of the market.

People kind of dismissed my answer, but the reality of what I'm going to say doesnt go away. Assuming a US population of 400 million, the top .1% of incomes is still...400,000 people. Make it the top .01% and thats still 40,000 people. At the levels of income that would involve, youd only need a handful of interested collectors chasing cards to support a market for the top level cards.

I am wondering if where one lives really influences their thinking on this. For instance in Los Angeles, Burbank Sportscards was heavily supported being near Toluca Lake...one of the wealthiest parts of the nation...as well as several other nearby neighborhoods that were favored parts of the entertainment industry. South Bay Sportscards in Lomita, CA charges outrageous prices. They are also right next to Rolling Hills and Palos Verdes, CA...neighborhoods with some very high incomes.

The number of people in LA with crazy money(say either $1million plus annual income, or $20 million plus liquid worth) might be 10x higher than many entire states. And NY, SF, Chicago, and maybe a few other big cities.

How many lottery winners, how many lotto level sports contracts, how many entertainment people, very successful investors and businessmen?

I can say with certainty that if I hit the lottery, my baseball card budget would blow from $1,000 a year or so to 25-100x that depending on how much money I had. And if I wanted a certain card or set that was rare, you can bet I'd be in there bidding it up.

Point being that the number of collectors out there with huge money...enough to the point that thousands or more are relatively meaningless...Is very likely a decent size number. And I think a lot of people in the hobby don't understand that. And those that do understand are tight lipped because their business depends on it.

[Exhibitman]

Good points John. I'd add that everything that goes into a nice lifestyle in Los Angeles has gotten out of hand due to the money sloshing around for playtime. Try going to a Dodgers game. Hundreds of dollars to sit on the field level anywhere near the plate. Or a concert. I just bought tickets to Green Day at the rose bowl. Nearly $200 for the back of the field. The lawn close to the stage was $450 a ticket.

As for my earlier comments on income disparity and tax policy, the response i got does not withstand scrutiny. An argument to averages is pointless because it weights the extremes. If you have a foot in a block of ice and a foot on fire then on average your feet are at a good temperature. The reality is that our economy has hollowed out to resemble a barbell with large extremes and an ever thinner middle. That's some third world banana republic stuff.

Oh, and cards aren't an investment. They are an illiquid asset with huge transactional costs at both entry and exit. If you want to bamboozle the wife with ROI talk to justify a trip to the National to hang out and party at the hotel bar I can totally respect that but don't expect me to buy into it. Maybe a Wagner is an investment but a vg T206 is a toy for boys. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I mean chicks dig guys who collect cards: look at all the women in the hotel bars in Chicago the first night of the National. So friendly. Gotta be the cards. Right?

[Yoda]

For me at least as a dealer/collector, where the rubber meets the road, is when I am offered what seems to be an obscene amount of money for one of my treasures I swore I would never sell. But then after agonizing, I would take the wampum and move on. It seems these days gold trumps cardboard.

[Dpeck100]

Third party grading makes a card a certified collectible. Anyone can agree or disagree with the grade but when it comes time to buy or sell the marketplace treats it as such. I recall a 1974 Topps Dave Winfield rookie that was graded a PSA 10 and even the most die hard PSA supporter couldn't in any circumstances look at the card and say Gem Mint. Well guess what it went for over $7,400 at the time and the buyer got a Dave Winfield encapsulated in a PSA 10 holder. Cards in graded cases have become commodities and the ease in which many can change hands has led to more money coming into the marketplace. One of the primary reasons the publicly traded stock and bond markets are so active is because they are liquid. The card market obviously isn't as liquid with the bid ask spread being wider and trading costs being higher but without third party grading that spread would be so wide it wouldn't allow for what has happened.


It is glaringly obvious from reading Net 54 that there are a ton of bitter collectors or haters that are so upset that they didn't jump on the graded card bandwagon in high grade. Many constantly throw insults at the people buying these cards and yet they are the one's laughing all the way to the bank. Anyone who thinks that you can't consistently tell the difference between a EX-MT card and a NM-MT or a NM and a Mint is just fooling themselves. In recent years there has been a movement towards mid grade cards with great eye appeal. These are obviously perfect cards for collectors wanting to enjoy the cards and have a reasonably nice card to look at but make no mistake about it the investment potential is in higher grades. It is really that simple. This topic has been discussed many times and at the core of collecting is ego. Whether you simply want to appease yourself for fun or you want to have the best that others can't it is a self interest motive and that is the core of one's ego. There is no doubt that many of the top cards in the hobby are bragging rights pieces. No different than any other high end collectibles or works of art.



The trend in the hobby is higher and while many sit and watch in amazement, happiness or bitterness it is what it is. I chose to collect a genre that I could afford the top level pieces. When you deal in the major sports you are competing against some of the wealthiest people in the world. All it takes is two very well off individuals to want an item and the sky is the limit. As the prices rise they become more intriguing. You can show someone a trading card that is worth $50 and they might say that is pretty cool. You show the same person a card that is worth $100,000 and their eyes light up and they say oh my God that is incredible. Taking that a step further showing someone a 7 figure card and they are in complete astonishment. This is one of the primary things that fuel high end prices. I can recall as a kid not being able to afford the 1986 Donruss Jose Canseco or the 1984 Fleer Update Roger Clemens. Imagine the same being true for someone who grew up watching Mickey Mantle or Nolan Ryan or another top star. This same person has gone on to great success and finds out that the same cards they wanted and couldn't afford can now be bought in differentiating condition like diamonds and are encapsulated for safety and handling with the grade proudly displayed on top. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if they become interested they will get hooked.


Just this past week a 1958 Topps Bobby Hull in a PSA 8 went for $102,000. The wave is spreading to all of the top cards from various sports and genres. It is going to take a very serious economic contraction for this to come to an end. Even then there will be vultures looking to pick of weak prey and the cycle will start again. Humans love to collect things of sentiment and value and trading cards offer this. The card market is like the income distribution and the spread between the haves and have nots continues to widen. There is nothing wrong with being average or owning average cards but the desire to be the best or own the best isn't going anywhere. When you add the element of past performance and true scarcity it is the perfect storm.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Oh, and cards aren't an investment. They are an illiquid asset with huge transactional costs at both entry and exit. If you want to bamboozle the wife with ROI talk to justify a trip to the National to hang out and party at the hotel bar I can totally respect that but don't expect me to buy into it. Maybe a Wagner is an investment but a vg T206 is a toy for boys. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I mean chicks dig guys who collect cards: look at all the women in the hotel bars in Chicago the first night of the National. So friendly. Gotta be the cards. Right?

This is what I keep coming back to... The 20% juice (or 13% + time & energy on Ebay) speak to those huge transaction costs. If my broker charged me this to move in and out of funds or single stocks, I would probably not consider the stock market a place that I would want to invest - considering how much work it would take to make money above the transaction costs.

I did laugh about bamboozling the wife - as whenever the arms cross and I get a stink eye about the latest card/set/project that I have bought or began, I pull out my inventory on the PSA registry page that shows that I have made about 20% above what I bought them for. Of course, this is SMR which does not feel very real world, and she & I know that I have no intention ever to sell - (and she doesn't realize that I am 80 cents on the dollar at an AH or less than that selling to a dealer) - but it cools down the heat in the kitchen and sometimes I will go on the offensive and compare the 20% return on my inventory to a measly 8.8% return on our liquid assets. Some day she is going to call my bluff and say - sell it all and I will have to explain that it really isn't that much above what I paid for it - if any at all - after fees are taken into account.

[GaryPassamonte]

Barry- the word "ego" comes to mind in all this. It's not aesthetics. It's not a love of baseball history. It's not rekindling childhood dreams. It's just "ego."

[Tennis13]

I have thought about this a lot. First, I think 1950s-1960s is exploding because a ton of baby boomers are aging and capturing their history. I am much younger but still get excited opening a 1986 Donruss pack and hitting a worthless Canseco. So in that scenario a rising tide lifts all boats.

Vintage: perhaps there is some foreign laundering going on? I learned a ton about Macau and getting onshore money offshore. Throw into that some other country money that needs to be parked and that could explain some of the rise in value.

That said, some of these auctions from late 2015/early 2016 prices look a little inflated. We will see, but if they are inflated and you pay 10% to 15% to launder money, that's ok, right?

You are seeing foreign money that needs a home in a ton of urban real estate markets on the high end. Why not baseball cards if they meet an ultimate need which may not be a collector need?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Barry- the word "ego" comes to mind in all this. It's not aesthetics. It's not a love of baseball history. It's not rekindling childhood dreams. It's just "ego."

Gary, exactly. It can't be the cards, because the minute differences in the corners (even assuming the cards are actually graded accurately and consistently and that's a huge assumption) are not even visible to most eyes without a loupe.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I understand herd mentality, and everyone assumes the card they buy will be just as desirable when it comes time to sell. But I still have trouble with how much faith is put on that label.

If you have 1952 Topps Mantle that grades PSA 8, and you are able to convince the grader that it deserves an extra ".5" on the label- not a full grade, but a half grade- that grader has just created a half a million dollars of wealth out of thin area. How did such a market evolve? Something about this simply escapes me.

And Peter S. is correct that the label, and not the card, is the commodity (and I love Wallace Stevens).

Hi Barry,

It may have been touched on but I think the people who are buying cards that cost in excess of 100K don't even notice a dip in the account balance after paying for that card and they have a belief that PSA is too big to fail.

Greg

[barrysloate]

Hi Greg,
I don't doubt that some people have so much money that a few hundred thousand won't make a dent, and I also see how there are those who will pay anything to get the best. That's the easy part of the equation. What I can't fathom is how something so imprecise, and so subjective, as grading is accepted with so much blind faith. I guess PSA has done a remarkable job of building their product. That's the best answer so far.

[obcbobd]

From previous posters I see where making a T206 counterfeit would be near impossible due to changes in printing and especially paper. What about more recent cards? 52 Mantle? Gretsky/Jordan/Rose rookies?

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Greg,
I don't doubt that some people have so much money that a few hundred thousand won't make a dent, and I also see how there are those who will pay anything to get the best. That's the easy part of the equation. What I can't fathom is how something so imprecise, and so subjective, as grading is accepted with so much blind faith. I guess PSA has done a remarkable job of building their product. That's the best answer so far.

Safety in numbers I suppose, Barry. So much money has been invested in graded material and continues to be spent. I look at every card I buy, regardless of what it costs...maybe because I feel I have to and because I can. Not everyone buying cards has the expertise to determine if their card is graded right so it is easier to defer to the "experts". I know I do not approach much of anything in my life, that way.

[Rookiemonster]

I think it's very possible to be in to cards for money and the love of the hobby.
When I was a kid in the 90s I lived to see the up arrow in the Beckett on cards I owned. So of course I hated to see the dreaded down arrows. I had dreams of my cards going up up up and me cashing in.

I also had cards that I just liked because of the image or the player. Most of what I said rings true today. I love to see my cards increase in value and hate it when they go down.

Now of late I've been buying 80s and 90s inserts. ( trying to buy a home ) so I've been taking it easy and I don't really care about the value but I'm still only buying cards I think are undervalued or rare for the era even.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If you have 1952 Topps Mantle that grades PSA 8, and you are able to convince the grader that it deserves an extra ".5" on the label- not a full grade, but a half grade- that grader has just created a half a million dollars of wealth out of thin area. How did such a market evolve? Something about this simply escapes me.

Rich dudes comparing pee-pee's. Nothing new about that. Same as faster cars, bigger boats or trophy wives.