Money in the hobby

[Bpm0014]

How did tobacco companies, over 100 years ago, create cards that cannot be duplicated today (with our modern technology)? What did they do then, that we can't do now?

[drcy]

I can't think of a good analogy, but modern and antique printing technology are mutually exclusive, just as the words modern and antique are mutually exclusive.

You identify and date the printing technology by looking at the printing at the microscopic level, not the naked eye level. So a digital printing technology (say a laser printer) can make a great reproduction at the naked eye level, but is identified as modern printing under the microscope.

[Exhibitman]

"accumulate then minimize. Building quantity and moving for quality in a repeated process"

Steve, can I use that with my wife? It sounds so much better than "buying a lot of stuff I like"?

[nat]

While we're talking about authentication, here's something I've been wondering about:

Does PSA have the world's greatest type collection? You can check that a card's printing is period with a microscope, but to check to see if the card stock is right for a particular issue you'd need to compare it to an example that you know belongs to that set. So if you send them something from a super-obscure set, does the grader have access to a known-authentic example from that set that he can compare your card to?

[drcy]

For the conspiracy theorists, there was a Doctor Who episode where a time-travelling chameleonic alien went back in time as Leonardo da Vinci in order to make multiple Mona Lisas for the future.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by drcy

I can't think of a good analogy, but modern and antique printing technology are mutually exclusive, just as the words modern and antique are mutually exclusive.

You identify and date the printing technology by looking at the printing at the microscopic level, not the naked eye level. So a digital printing technology (say a laser printer) can make a great reproduction at the naked eye level, but is identified as modern printing under the microscope.

Absolutely, David--and a great couple of articles you authored, by the way--they are much appreciated! Examples made by taking different paths leave different footprints.

Further thoughts: The sky is not falling, nor is the bottom dropping out of the hobby because some prices are rising quite quickly, and it's not only PSA 9's and 10's. The autographed Dietsche Cobb rookie that recently sold in the BST 10/23/16 auction for $26,220.00 previously sold for a fraction of that, $5377.00 in October, 2012. The PSA 5 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb rookie which sold tor $10,875.70 in the May 16, 2015 Heritage auction went for $7852.81 on 3/16/12. Our hobby is simply catching up with other collectible markets such as coins with regard to really rare and significant items, but is doing so IMHO much faster due to the internet. I started collecting again as an adult circa 1990, and you could attend the National, major regional shows, as well as all the locals and not come close to finding all of the rare and significant cards that appear on ebay or in one or more of the major auctions on a relatively frequent basis. The internet, as well as the proliferation of major auction houses, coupled with real and legitimate growth of the hobby has vastly altered the demand versus supply equation with regard to such items, which of course multiplies value in a big way.

This is not to say that some of the big money collectors are not simply investors, but that is not all bad. If you study the history of the coin field, you'll see that when a herd of such investors come in, prices soar (especially for very high numbered mint state items--mint state is numbered from 60-70 in coins-- which may be relatively common in only slightly lower mint state grades), only to fall back when a number of these individuals exit stage right. But some of them stay, decide they like what they've purchased, and become real collectors. The market has then not only recovered, but grown in subsequent years! And what's not to like about vintage cards? They are truly a two-dimensional slice of a 3-dimensional moment in the player's life and career, made contemporaneously with that single instant, and preserved for decades, centuries, and millenniums (?). The card does in fact connect you to the player, and take you back to the time!

Best wishes to all, and much thanks again for the links to the two articles, David,

Larry

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

How did tobacco companies, over 100 years ago, create cards that cannot be duplicated today (with our modern technology)? What did they do then, that we can't do now?

As others have said, the printing technologies are different now. Back then, they used lithographic printing techniques and now it's more laser printing. Therefore, under magnification, you can see the print dots are different. A counterfeiter would need to bring back lithographic printing which is much easier said than done. In addition, paper stock right now fluoresces, and it did not for prewar cards. This is why using the black light test is a standard test now to determine authenticity. A counterfeiter would basically have to be able to create paper stock like they did back then or find a bunch of unused paper stock from the prewar days that is nearly identical to the card they are trying to forge. Both of these things put together make it extremely hard to counterfeit prewar cards, which is why I doubt there are virtually any that are out there. In addition, many of the veterans of the hobby do not slab their cards, and keep their collection raw. Therefore, they are used to feeling the texture of paper stock and the look of the ink, they'd catch most fakes quickly. I think people see the Black Swamp or Lucky 7 find, and they are concerned about loads of fake prewar cards being reprinted, and I just don't think that is happening.

It's much easier for counterfeiters to focus on the old style TPG slabs and flips which are much simpler to replicate. Then you could put a fake card inside one of those slabs or an altered or overgraded genuine card.

And of course, restoring, altering, trimmed cards are a problem in the hobby. I don't doubt that. However, I don't see the absolute population of the cards increasing due to counterfeiting techniques.

About the comment that in the 70s/80s, these cards just weren't seen, I think a lot of that is due to the internet now. Back then, you had no idea what was out there, and now you can just go to ebay and google the card, and you can see many instances of it immediately. Folks are more likely now to know what they have and not throw it out since they can quickly check the internet and know it is actually worth $$$$. Also with all of the auctions always going on, it may seem like there is a Ruth rookie on auction all of the time. However, the total population is still only around 100-200, which is really not a lot when you consider there are over 300 million people in the US, and even if it's only the 1%'ers that can afford these cards, that's still a lot more people than cards out there.

Anyway, I'm not saying the card market can't collapse, because it definitely can even for rare prewar cards. You can look at some of the card prices from 2007/08, and there are still some cards that have not returned to those prices that they sold back then. However, if the overall card market does collapse, I think it'd more be due to macroeconomic effects of the economy such as if we go into another strong recession as opposed to a TPG like PSA going under. Because even if the slab is now worthless, people still want the card inside it.

A couple of caveats: I make no comment on high grade cards or vintage/modern cards which have populations in the thousands or much higher. I also can't understand the current market prices there at all, so can't say where those will go.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glchen

As others have said, the printing technologies are different now. Back then, they used lithographic printing techniques and now it's more laser printing. Therefore, under magnification, you can see the print dots are different. A counterfeiter would need to bring back lithographic printing which is much easier said than done. In addition, paper stock right now fluoresces, and it did not for prewar cards. This is why using the black light test is a standard test now to determine authenticity. A counterfeiter would basically have to be able to create paper stock like they did back then or find a bunch of unused paper stock from the prewar days that is nearly identical to the card they are trying to forge. Both of these things put together make it extremely hard to counterfeit prewar cards, which is why I doubt there are virtually any that are out there. In addition, many of the veterans of the hobby do not slab their cards, and keep their collection raw. Therefore, they are used to feeling the texture of paper stock and the look of the ink, they'd catch most fakes quickly. I think people see the Black Swamp or Lucky 7 find, and they are concerned about loads of fake prewar cards being reprinted, and I just don't think that is happening.

It's much easier for counterfeiters to focus on the old style TPG slabs and flips which are much simpler to replicate. Then you could put a fake card inside one of those slabs or an altered or overgraded genuine card.

And of course, restoring, altering, trimmed cards are a problem in the hobby. I don't doubt that. However, I don't see the absolute population of the cards increasing due to counterfeiting techniques.

About the comment that in the 70s/80s, these cards just weren't seen, I think a lot of that is due to the internet now. Back then, you had no idea what was out there, and now you can just go to ebay and google the card, and you can see many instances of it immediately. Folks are more likely now to know what they have and not throw it out since they can quickly check the internet and know it is actually worth $$$$. Also with all of the auctions always going on, it may seem like there is a Ruth rookie on auction all of the time. However, the total population is still only around 100-200, which is really not a lot when you consider there are over 300 million people in the US, and even if it's only the 1%'ers that can afford these cards, that's still a lot more people than cards out there.

Anyway, I'm not saying the card market can't collapse, because it definitely can even for rare prewar cards. You can look at some of the card prices from 2007/08, and there are still some cards that have not returned to those prices that they sold back then. However, if the overall card market does collapse, I think it'd more be due to macroeconomic effects of the economy such as if we go into another strong recession as opposed to a TPG like PSA going under. Because even if the slab is now worthless, people still want the card inside it.

A couple of caveats: I make no comment on high grade cards or vintage/modern cards which have populations in the thousands or much higher. I also can't understand the current market prices there at all, so can't say where those will go.

Agree 100%. Ever increasing prices raised the same concerns in the coin market, and truly rare, significant items are still appreciating in value (check some of the better coin books issued in the last decade or less, giving real auction values for truly rare coins sold during that time period). The same has held true in cars, where there are many examples of rare and significant vehicles passing through the 7-figure "barrier" as if it was made of very soft butter! Don't believe it? How about a 1967 Corvette, selling for more than $3 million (1967 L-88 427 model; 20 made). A 1971 Hemi Cuda convertible for $2 million plus (11 or 12 in existence). 1962 Ferrari 250 GT's selling well into 8 figures. Very limited production Jaguar XKE lightweights, produced exclusively for racing (somewhere around 12 made, and selling for around $7 million, if memory serves correctly). Fakes have also frequently been attempted in both coins and cards, with little success. Q. David Bowers, an elite expert in the coin field, has been asked how high prices can go, and his answer has usually referred to what some works of art have sold and are selling for ($100 million plus). Perhaps not so unrealistic in the somewhat distant future even in the card hobby, when you consider that the 1903 E107 Mathewson in the REA auction, which went for $144,000, was a $900- $1000 item in 1995--thus increasing in value around 150 times in just over 20 years. Amazing, or just rare and significant to the extreme in an ever growing field?

Tremendously rising prices simply make some of us nervous (as well perhaps they should, as many will inevitably be priced out of the market for the best of the best items--learn to identify those which are yet undervalued now, as John J. Pittman did in coins, eventually putting together a $40 million collection, even though never able to afford the great rarities, or "trophy" coins!), but it's just hobby growth for the most part (pure speculator/"investor" types aside). I have an early to mid '90's REA auction catalog which is just several pages of newsprint in black and white on yellow stock (an insert to SCD, as I recall). Compare that to the most recent edition, with 700+ pages of the best glossy stock available. That, my fellow collectors, simply signifies growth, and growth on a very large scale. If that growth is largely attributable to true collectors who actually really like buying pieces of the history of the game, it will not only be sustainable but continue.

I guess you can see that I am most definitively not a "the sky is falling" type.

Highest regards,

Larry

[swarmee]

For what it's worth, the ones paying vast sums for the Mint and Gem Mint HOF rookies at least have PSA's insurance policy that will reimburse them if the card is found to a forgery or altered, presuming the card was truly graded by PSA and the slab is still intact (not fake flip/switched out card/fake holder).
Plus, if you really have a PSA 9 Aaron RC, are you going to remove it from the holder and send it in again raw? If not, it doesn't matter as the PSA flip is staying with the card. And if you for some reason think the card could become a 10, you're going to leave it with a min grade of 9, so PSA doesn't reconsider the grade they've already given it.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

How did tobacco companies, over 100 years ago, create cards that cannot be duplicated today (with our modern technology)? What did they do then, that we can't do now?

I have Always Referred to David's Knowledge of Ink Processing & Photography. His explanation of radiometric & carbon dating is sound teaching.
And even if it were possible ta somehow get by or around this major issue,
You still have the Papar Problem!

Ovar the Years From What I have found, We Simply Don't Know How the Papar was produced.
To think that someone in todays techno world could easily figure this out is Truly an immense project.
And iN Reality... No one would spend the Time, Effort & Money ta do So!
Only to Come uP Short of Victory!!!

I have looked at and discuss the material that is comprised within T206's, E90-1's & T205's wit a friend of mine(Who's Family own's one of the Largest Printin Co.'s in New York, His Great Grand Father start'd the Co. RiGHT Around 1901), And wit All His Knowledge, antique museum material, along wit his family past antique equipment, The whole bunch of'em are Clueless to how the papar was process'd/made!

Sure there are those wit well educated theory's...
Howevar, has Anyone replicated their theory inta a product & proved it can be done?

Kinda like Buildin a Viking longship or even replicatin their steel...
The World's Best have tried and fail'd!

LookiN at the Side view of a T206, under a 50x optic can be Truly FasinatiN...
If You havn't tried it as of yet, Giv'er a Go...

[rainier2004]

Gary - This is what I propose and can be done:

In addition, paper stock right now fluoresces, and it did not for prewar cards. This is why using the black light test is a standard test now to determine authenticity. A counterfeiter would basically have to be able to create paper stock like they did back then or find a bunch of unused paper stock from the prewar days that is nearly identical to the card they are trying to forge.

Why not just recreate the stock? Todays stock only glows b/c of its compounds. How hard would it be to recreate edges and corners? This is standard restoration in other fields. Its just accepted and disclosed.

My while point is this: with the ever increasing prices, we ill see ever increasing fraud and attempts to deceive. At what point do people just say enough is enough? The amounts of money are just rather large.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Gary - This is what I propose and can be done:

In addition, paper stock right now fluoresces, and it did not for prewar cards. This is why using the black light test is a standard test now to determine authenticity. A counterfeiter would basically have to be able to create paper stock like they did back then or find a bunch of unused paper stock from the prewar days that is nearly identical to the card they are trying to forge.

Why not just recreate the stock? Todays stock only glows b/c of its compounds. How hard would it be to recreate edges and corners? This is standard restoration in other fields. Its just accepted and disclosed.

My while point is this: with the ever increasing prices, we ill see ever increasing fraud and attempts to deceive. At what point do people just say enough is enough? The amounts of money are just rather large.

Card doctoring has been rampant for the two decades since I got back into collecting. In my opinion, as witnessed by the continued strength of the market, not many people care.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

I have Always Referred to David's Knowledge of Ink Processing & Photography. His explanation of radiometric & carbon dating is sound teaching.
And even if it were possible ta somehow get by or around this major issue,
You still have the Papar Problem!

Ovar the Years From What I have found, We Simply Don't Know How the Papar was produced.
To think that someone in todays techno world could easily figure this out is Truly an immense project.
And iN Reality... No one would spend the Time, Effort & Money ta do So!
Only to Come uP Short of Victory!!!

I have looked at and discuss the material that is comprised within T206's, E90-1's & T205's wit a friend of mine(Who's Family own's one of the Largest Printin Co.'s in New York, His Great Grand Father start'd the Co. RiGHT Around 1901), And wit All His Knowledge, antique museum material, along wit his family past antique equipment, The whole bunch of'em are Clueless to how the papar was process'd/made!

Sure there are those wit well educated theory's...
Howevar, has Anyone replicated their theory inta a product & proved it can be done?

Kinda like Buildin a Viking longship or even replicatin their steel...
The World's Best have tried and fail'd!

LookiN at the Side view of a T206, under a 50x optic can be Truly FasinatiN...
If You havn't tried it as of yet, Giv'er a Go...

Kind of messing up the timelines by responding as I go through the thread. Sorry, can't think of a better way.

Knowing people in the printing business where it's a place that goes back to 1901 is pretty cool.

But it goes right to what I said in another post.
They really KNOW printing. But they don't make paper, so it's a mystery.

The paper people know how the paper was made. Cranes has a small museum in Dalton that shows the process that came before machine made paper.
The machine process isn't much different than making paper by hand, except for how it's more precise, and done on a very large scale.
I'm sure a mill would make you whatever you wanted - IF you bought enough. I sort of don't want to know what a minimum run of special paper is. I've had special stuff made a couple times, and finding a place that will make say 500 lbs /a few hundred feet of a special size metal tube is difficult. And that's just a small redraw mill, not an actual tubing mill.

So duplicating it would mean replicating the process on a small scale that's typically done by a very large machine. (The one that makes our money paper- if my Jr High memory is correct- is about 200 Ft long if not more.)
That's really not easy.

Steve B

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by steve B

Kind of messing up the timelines by responding as I go through the thread. Sorry, can't think of a better way.

Knowing people in the printing business where it's a place that goes back to 1901 is pretty cool.

But it goes right to what I said in another post.
They really KNOW printing. But they don't make paper, so it's a mystery.

The paper people know how the paper was made. Cranes has a small museum in Dalton that shows the process that came before machine made paper.
The machine process isn't much different than making paper by hand, except for how it's more precise, and done on a very large scale.
I'm sure a mill would make you whatever you wanted - IF you bought enough. I sort of don't want to know what a minimum run of special paper is. I've had special stuff made a couple times, and finding a place that will make say 500 lbs /a few hundred feet of a special size metal tube is difficult. And that's just a small redraw mill, not an actual tubing mill.

So duplicating it would mean replicating the process on a small scale that's typically done by a very large machine. (The one that makes our money paper- if my Jr High memory is correct- is about 200 Ft long if not more.)
That's really not easy.

Steve B

Steve, Dankz fir the discussion!

I was of the Same Mind Set!
Until They, Which Included a Gentlemen Who's Family had made their Papar
fir just about the same amount of time educated me.
(I guess my implications were in my head but didn't translate well inta my writings, "My Apologies Sir!)

I was Schooled in the process...
And Then was Told THaT Sum of the Process & Materials are Known
Howevar, The Expertise through the lack of Experience has been Lost.

The "What ta Use" is Sum What Known..
But the How, How Much & When ta Process them is Gone!

They concluded with Reproducing the Card Stock
Fir T206's, E90-1's & T205's Would be a NiGHTMare...

I Realize that there are many More Knowledgeable People witin the Papar Industry out there (And I'm Certainly Not one of them!) Wit more optimistic attitudes about Reproducin These Specific Card Stocks...

I just want ta add that Lost Arts are everywhere witin the History of Man
And from what I've found out this seems like a logical "Lost Art" ~

I Do Like Bein Correct...
I Just Very Rarely am!

Unless it has t do wit Electronic Theory

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Steve, Dankz fir the discussion!

I was of the Same Mind Set!
Until They, Which Included a Gentlemen Who's Family had made their Papar
fir just about the same amount of time educated me.
(I guess my implications were in my head but didn't translate well inta my writings, "My Apologies Sir!)

I was Schooled in the process...
And Then was Told THaT Sum of the Process & Materials are Known
Howevar, The Expertise through the lack of Experience has been Lost.

The "What ta Use" is Sum What Known..
But the How, How Much & When ta Process them is Gone!

They concluded with Reproducing the Card Stock
Fir T206's, E90-1's & T205's Would be a NiGHTMare...

I Realize that there are many More Knowledgeable People witin the Papar Industry out there (And I'm Certainly Not one of them!) Wit more optimistic attitudes about Reproducin These Specific Card Stocks...

I just want ta add that Lost Arts are everywhere witin the History of Man
And from what I've found out this seems like a logical "Lost Art" ~

I Do Like Bein Correct...
I Just Very Rarely am!

Unless it has t do wit Electronic Theory

Perhaps.
That someone with a lot of years in says it would be really hard must count for something.

One of the good things about paper is that for the most part papermaking back then was a bit less precise than it is now.
There's a variety with the stamps I collect known as "straw paper" Because it's got bits of straw/hay in it. Some people consider it as an entirely different paper. The reality is that if the vat of pulp has to be just fluid enough for the purpose, not too thick, not too watery. But since it's there all day being mixed they have to constantly add water. Back then, if too much water was added they'd throw in a bale or two of hay to thicken it up, resulting in a bit of the batch getting a bunch of hay particles in it.
That's 1870's -80's, and things barely changed at all between then and 1910.

Now it's probably constantly checked by sensors and a computer controls the water content.

Yes, a bunch of that expertise would have been lost. Duplicating it precisely so nobody could tell probably isn't possible. Duplicating it so it's really hard to tell? I think it's doable.

Steve B

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

Perhaps.
That someone with a lot of years in says it would be really hard must count for something.

One of the good things about paper is that for the most part papermaking back then was a bit less precise than it is now.
There's a variety with the stamps I collect known as "straw paper" Because it's got bits of straw/hay in it. Some people consider it as an entirely different paper. The reality is that if the vat of pulp has to be just fluid enough for the purpose, not too thick, not too watery. But since it's there all day being mixed they have to constantly add water. Back then, if too much water was added they'd throw in a bale or two of hay to thicken it up, resulting in a bit of the batch getting a bunch of hay particles in it.
That's 1870's -80's, and things barely changed at all between then and 1910.

Now it's probably constantly checked by sensors and a computer controls the water content.

Yes, a bunch of that expertise would have been lost. Duplicating it precisely so nobody could tell probably isn't possible. Duplicating it so it's really hard to tell? I think it's doable.

Steve B

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

I believe that is also possible, and in some cases may be easier than duplicating the paper and ink.

Sometimes I consider giving it a try just to prove it's possible, then I start adding up the cost what I'd need, and the hours I'd have to spend, and for me it's just too expensive without the willingness to actually put a few out there. That's a line I just wouldn't cross, I'd end up as a great technician who wasn't any better than some guy with a laser printer and some cardboard. And more than likely one who was doing time.

Now if some one wanted to sponsor the project as a bit of performance art with all the card/cards and the entire setup destroyed at the end to be sure they weren't sold.......(Adds to list of bad ideas that I'm probably glad there wouldn't be any support for.)

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

How did tobacco companies, over 100 years ago, create cards that cannot be duplicated today (with our modern technology)? What did they do then, that we can't do now?

The printers then did things in ways that are different than what is commonly done today. None of it is anything we can't do now. The problem is the fine details. And forging a truly perfect replica of a T206 would require some serious skill in a number of areas. While society has generally trended away from generalists to specialists, the skills even back then were specialized.

You'd need to -

Be an expert on the materials used in several areas, and be able to use modern equipment to identify exactly what you need to make.

Be an expert on paper and how it's made.
Be able to replicate on a small scale what was done on a large scale. (Papermill vs handmade paper. )
Create the paper pulp - same sort of fibers, same fiber lengths and quality.
Create the sizing-
Create the coating for the front.

The closest paper I've found is comic book backing boards, which are too thick, but will pass most ordinary examinations.
But that paper isn't really the same.

Next, be an expert on the inks.
Figure out from spectrographic analysis what the carrier/hardener was and what the pigments were.
Then obtain those.
Not as easy as it seems, some in 1910 were probably early synthetic dyes, which may not be made anymore.
So you need to be a chemist as well to recreate those.

Be an expert printer.
Litho stones, how to lay them out, then you need a vintage press....

Recreate the original art.
Pretty difficult.
You need an original to work from to get it exact.

And after all that, the dating will never show it up as old.

Could a card be made that would pass a cursory examination by someone who really knew cards? Yes. Could one be made undetectable? No.

The closest I've ever seen was shown to me in maybe 82-83. A very nice 51 Mantle. Nicer than any 51 Bowman I'd ever seen. The dealer I hung out at handed it to me and asked what I thought. No opinion expressed either way. After a few minutes maybe 5-10 I gave it back and said it was a wonderful fake but I couldn't explain why I knew it was fake other than it just seemed "wrong" . That was his opinion as well, and that of I think at least 5 other dealers.
Today I could probably figure out why it seemed wrong.


Steve B

[Snapolit1]

Not trying to push any political buttons, but we are a country of immense wealth disparity. I spend a decent amount of time down the Jersey shore, in an area that was devastated by Hurricane Sandy. Every grandma and grandpa bungalow that was destroyed by the storm has been replaced by a mansion 5 times larger. With a pool in the backyard. And it isn't a station wagon in the driveway but 2 BMWs. My wife constantly says to me "are there really that many people with so much money." Yes, there are. At least within driving distance of Wall Street. Some of these people spend $50,000 on a watch. Some have wine cellars with a half a million dollars of wine. Some spend hundreds of thousands buying racehorses. To spend $300,000 on a baseball card thinking (a) its really cool and (b) it very likely will appreciate or at least hold its value doesn't seem like a crazy idea at all. If you can say this is a 1 of 1 or a 1 of 10 of anything, I think it's a fine investment -- if you are rich and diversified. I have no doubt that a good scandal would hit the industry hard. And then it would come back. The racing industry has a scandal every few months and rich people still spend $5 million or more on untested, unproved race horses.

It's not the Mantle cards of the Satchel Paiges or the Babe Ruths that have me scratching my head. But people spending $50,000 on an unopened pack. Yeah, I'm not so sure about that.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Not trying to push any political buttons, but we are a country of immense wealth disparity. I spend a decent amount of time down the Jersey shore, in an area that was devastated by Hurricane Sandy. Every grandma and grandpa bungalow that was destroyed by the storm has been replaced by a mansion 5 times larger. With a pool in the backyard. And it isn't a station wagon in the driveway but 2 BMWs. My wife constantly says to me "are there really that many people with so much money." Yes, there are. At least within driving distance of Wall Street. Some of these people spend $50,000 on a watch. Some have wine cellars with a half a million dollars of wine. Some spend hundreds of thousands buying racehorses. To spend $300,000 on a baseball card thinking (a) its really cool and (b) it very likely will appreciate or at least hold its value doesn't seem like a crazy idea at all. If you can say this is a 1 of 1 or a 1 of 10 of anything, I think it's a fine investment -- if you are rich and diversified. I have no doubt that a good scandal would hit the industry hard. And then it would come back. The racing industry has a scandal every few months and rich people still spend $5 million or more on untested, unproved race horses.

It's not the Mantle cards of the Satchel Paiges or the Babe Ruths that have me scratching my head. But people spending $50,000 on an unopened pack. Yeah, I'm not so sure about that.

As to the first point, the last 30 years have been a great experiment in economics. When you cut taxes repeatedly and create other loopholes for the benefit of extremely wealthy people, they were supposed to put that money to productive use in business and grow everyone's wealth, but the reality is that they buy more toys instead. Supposedly high end cards (I say supposedly because there are so many really bad altered prewar cards in high end PSA holders) are just another rich boys' toy.

[rainier2004]

I do want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, there have been some very well though-out responses and posts that have been rather respectful and I have enjoyed this talk.

One final word on the reproduction of vintage paper...I don't know, I went to a restoration studio where CHUNKS of paintings and art that were created 200-300 years were missing. The art restorers created his own stock, filled in the voids and NOTHING glowed under a black light. To my untrained eye, it looked perfect...bb card stock can be reproduced w/o detection of tpgs.

This thread does need a card, this would be my favorite WaJo and no, its not mine.

[hangman62]

I thinking spending thousands of dollars on baseball cards is stupid thing to do

( and this coming from a long time passionate collector,who loves cards and the hobby)

I sometimes wish the whole baseball card business would go belly up/cards totally worthless/ bankrupt /useless

Then lets see whos left who really truly enjoys the " worthless cardboard photos" ..for what they are

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by hangman62

i sometimes wish the whole baseball card business would go belly up/cards totally worthless/ bankrupt /useless

then lets see whos left who really truly enjoys the " worthless cardboard photos" ..for what they are

yes!

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

This thread does need a card, this would be my favorite WaJo and no, its not mine.

Great choice in a thread relating to the incompetentcies of the grading companies!

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Great choice in a thread relating to the incompetentcies of the grading companies!

heh heh heh...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As to the first point, the last 30 years have been a great experiment in economics. When you cut taxes repeatedly and create other loopholes for the benefit of extremely wealthy people, they were supposed to put that money to productive use in business and grow everyone's wealth, but the reality is that they buy more toys instead. Supposedly high end cards (I say supposedly because there are so many really bad altered prewar cards in high end PSA holders) are just another rich boys' toy.

No, they are wise investments. People are reinvesting their money to maintain and increase their financial position. It is no different than buying stocks, bonds, etc. If you don't think the average person is doing well, I would suggest you take a trip to Haiti or Afghanistan.