![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
If you have 1952 Topps Mantle that grades PSA 8, and you are able to convince the grader that it deserves an extra ".5" on the label- not a full grade, but a half grade- that grader has just created a half a million dollars of wealth out of thin area. How did such a market evolve? Something about this simply escapes me. And Peter S. is correct that the label, and not the card, is the commodity (and I love Wallace Stevens). |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
For 10 points Barry name the poem, no cheating.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Is it "The Emperor of Ice Cream"? It's just a guess.
|
#5
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
"when you consider that the 1903 E107 Mathewson in the REA auction, which went for $144,000, was a $900- $1000 item in 1995--thus increasing in value around 150 times in just over ....."
Larry-I'm not sure where you are getting your 1995 number from. In the mid-1990s I won a beat to hell Mathewson E107 in a David Festberg auction for $2000. When I got it I found that the condition was even worse than described and I called David to say I was returning it. His response? No problem--the under bidder was Larry Fritsch and he'll take it. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
May your collecting bring you bliss, Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 05-11-2017 at 02:51 PM. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Postcard from the Volcano
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Don't know that one...now I have to spend the whole weekend reading Wallace Stevens.
![]() |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Last edited by drcy; 05-04-2017 at 03:58 PM. |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Barry, I don't disagree with you at all in regards to the flips, but for collectibles, people often defer to these so called experts in those fields even when buying extremely expensive things. When someone says that a wine receives a certain rating or the vintage that year was particularly excellent, do most of us have any idea what they are talking about? When some "expert" says this modern art painting is part of the new avant garde in the field right now and is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, do those people who buy those paintings really have any idea what they are buying? And many collectors may come from collecting coins, where these same issues have been rehashed over and over again. I'm not saying I agree with it but just trying to explain how we got here.
|
#11
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
I do "get" the animosity towards TPGs, towards the money in the hobby, etc. but in the end, sports cards aren't just investments or tokens of our childhood or connections to the game, etc. Collecting cards (or whatever) is different things for different people, and perhaps many things for some, and that makes the hobby more nuanced and interesting, to me. |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
While I like the safety of the entombment of the card and the fact that the condition is locked forever (in theory - deterioration from chemicals as the possible exception), if I had my choice I would have them all raw so I could enjoy them in binders and look at them on a daily basis. As it stands, it take front/back photocopies of the graded cards - usually the high value superstars - with a label that shoes the grade, registration number and SMR and put it back in the binder
However, I have had too many circumstances where I have had a raw card talked down When I am selling - Ex becomes VG - and then pumped up When I am buying EX becomes NM. Of course, even with the standardization and commoditization of the flip/slab, most don't want to pay more than 70-75% of the VCP amount so I am not sure how far we have come. Therefore, I buy graded cards primarily to protect my spouse/family in the case something happens to me. As that way there is a cost basis to work off of for the big stuff. Based upon my budget/discretionary income, I buy mostly 6's and 7's. I'd love to have 8's but I can't justify the 4x price of a 6 for the incremental visual appeal over a strong 6. But to those who can - God bless and more power to you.
__________________
2024 Collecting Goals: 53-55 Red Mans Complete Set Last edited by kailes2872; 05-05-2017 at 07:39 PM. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
A similar thread came up on the psa forums a few years ago with a supposed "buying group" manipulated some elements of the market.
People kind of dismissed my answer, but the reality of what I'm going to say doesnt go away. Assuming a US population of 400 million, the top .1% of incomes is still...400,000 people. Make it the top .01% and thats still 40,000 people. At the levels of income that would involve, youd only need a handful of interested collectors chasing cards to support a market for the top level cards. I am wondering if where one lives really influences their thinking on this. For instance in Los Angeles, Burbank Sportscards was heavily supported being near Toluca Lake...one of the wealthiest parts of the nation...as well as several other nearby neighborhoods that were favored parts of the entertainment industry. South Bay Sportscards in Lomita, CA charges outrageous prices. They are also right next to Rolling Hills and Palos Verdes, CA...neighborhoods with some very high incomes. The number of people in LA with crazy money(say either $1million plus annual income, or $20 million plus liquid worth) might be 10x higher than many entire states. And NY, SF, Chicago, and maybe a few other big cities. How many lottery winners, how many lotto level sports contracts, how many entertainment people, very successful investors and businessmen? I can say with certainty that if I hit the lottery, my baseball card budget would blow from $1,000 a year or so to 25-100x that depending on how much money I had. And if I wanted a certain card or set that was rare, you can bet I'd be in there bidding it up. Point being that the number of collectors out there with huge money...enough to the point that thousands or more are relatively meaningless...Is very likely a decent size number. And I think a lot of people in the hobby don't understand that. And those that do understand are tight lipped because their business depends on it. Last edited by dodgerfanjohn; 05-06-2017 at 12:39 AM. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Good points John. I'd add that everything that goes into a nice lifestyle in Los Angeles has gotten out of hand due to the money sloshing around for playtime. Try going to a Dodgers game. Hundreds of dollars to sit on the field level anywhere near the plate. Or a concert. I just bought tickets to Green Day at the rose bowl. Nearly $200 for the back of the field. The lawn close to the stage was $450 a ticket.
As for my earlier comments on income disparity and tax policy, the response i got does not withstand scrutiny. An argument to averages is pointless because it weights the extremes. If you have a foot in a block of ice and a foot on fire then on average your feet are at a good temperature. The reality is that our economy has hollowed out to resemble a barbell with large extremes and an ever thinner middle. That's some third world banana republic stuff. Oh, and cards aren't an investment. They are an illiquid asset with huge transactional costs at both entry and exit. If you want to bamboozle the wife with ROI talk to justify a trip to the National to hang out and party at the hotel bar I can totally respect that but don't expect me to buy into it. Maybe a Wagner is an investment but a vg T206 is a toy for boys. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I mean chicks dig guys who collect cards: look at all the women in the hotel bars in Chicago the first night of the National. So friendly. Gotta be the cards. Right?
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-06-2017 at 07:24 AM. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Barry- the word "ego" comes to mind in all this. It's not aesthetics. It's not a love of baseball history. It's not rekindling childhood dreams. It's just "ego."
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
I have thought about this a lot. First, I think 1950s-1960s is exploding because a ton of baby boomers are aging and capturing their history. I am much younger but still get excited opening a 1986 Donruss pack and hitting a worthless Canseco. So in that scenario a rising tide lifts all boats.
Vintage: perhaps there is some foreign laundering going on? I learned a ton about Macau and getting onshore money offshore. Throw into that some other country money that needs to be parked and that could explain some of the rise in value. That said, some of these auctions from late 2015/early 2016 prices look a little inflated. We will see, but if they are inflated and you pay 10% to 15% to launder money, that's ok, right? You are seeing foreign money that needs a home in a ton of urban real estate markets on the high end. Why not baseball cards if they meet an ultimate need which may not be a collector need? |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Gary, exactly. It can't be the cards, because the minute differences in the corners (even assuming the cards are actually graded accurately and consistently and that's a huge assumption) are not even visible to most eyes without a loupe.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-04-2017 at 04:27 PM. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
It may have been touched on but I think the people who are buying cards that cost in excess of 100K don't even notice a dip in the account balance after paying for that card and they have a belief that PSA is too big to fail. Greg |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Hi Greg,
I don't doubt that some people have so much money that a few hundred thousand won't make a dent, and I also see how there are those who will pay anything to get the best. That's the easy part of the equation. What I can't fathom is how something so imprecise, and so subjective, as grading is accepted with so much blind faith. I guess PSA has done a remarkable job of building their product. That's the best answer so far. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
From previous posters I see where making a T206 counterfeit would be near impossible due to changes in printing and especially paper. What about more recent cards? 52 Mantle? Gretsky/Jordan/Rose rookies?
__________________
My wantlist http://www.oldbaseball.com/wantlists...tag=bdonaldson Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
|
#22
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I think it's very possible to be in to cards for money and the love of the hobby.
When I was a kid in the 90s I lived to see the up arrow in the Beckett on cards I owned. So of course I hated to see the dreaded down arrows. I had dreams of my cards going up up up and me cashing in. I also had cards that I just liked because of the image or the player. Most of what I said rings true today. I love to see my cards increase in value and hate it when they go down. Now of late I've been buying 80s and 90s inserts. ( trying to buy a home ) so I've been taking it easy and I don't really care about the value but I'm still only buying cards I think are undervalued or rare for the era even.
__________________
Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼 |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Hobby history: Card dealers of the 1960s: James T. Elder (+ hobby drama, 1968-69) | trdcrdkid | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 12 | 03-08-2017 05:23 PM |
Make some extra money via your hobby! | Sean1125 | Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk | 2 | 08-03-2015 08:48 AM |
Hobby Newsflash! Re: Top 250 Cards In Hobby | MattyC | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 10 | 01-17-2014 04:08 PM |
Not always...but sometimes, you should take the money | Leon | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 14 | 10-27-2011 10:39 AM |
When you have no money.... | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 24 | 11-11-2005 10:28 AM |