Interesting Ebay Bidding

[Republicaninmass]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

[dariushou]

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

I asked this a while ago but received no answer.

The question was, if you were outbid and then moved on and purchased/spent your money on other cards, then were told you were now the high bidder, as the previous highest bidder retracted, are you now obligated to purchase that card?

Originally Posted by dariushou

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

Great observations! It is something I admittedly don't look at or even think about looking at, (until now) but at the same time, I don't play in this high end part of the collecting world so I am glad that there is a good chance I haven't purchased any shilled up cards.

Personally, I hate reading that these types of things go on, as, imo, they are only hurting the hobby.

[dariushou]

It is sad, very sad indeed. Unfortunately, the above examples are just the obvious ones. I've been collecting off and on for 30 odd years and what i've seen lately and over the past couple of years is just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm no expert on ebay bidding, but i find it odd that most, if not all, of PWCC auctions get early bids and strong ones at that. High feedback/ low feedback...it doesn't matter. PWCC gets them. It didn't take me long back in 1998 when i started ebaying to realize that my early bids were actually pushing the price higher. At least that's what my inner self was telling me so i started sniping or doing BIN, only. I know there are valid reason for bidding early and by god it is an auction. One valid reason I hear is that early bids could scare some away because they don't want to compete. But the basis for that reason is to get good deals. Does anyone get good deals, at least consistently with PWCC auctions? Maybe, i don't know. Some may also like to put a low bid in to put it on their radar in "My Ebay"...who knows...i've done that.

Anyhow, tonight, i wanted to spend all of 10 minutes seeing who were some of the early bidders on some of PWCC's latest auctions. I didn't care if it was a high dollar item...just PWCC's latest auctions (put on last night or early today). I mainly looked at a few of the 1950 Callahans and 1949-1950 Bowmans.

I'm by no means saying what i saw constitutes shilling...way to early to tell. I will be honest and admit i only looked at a few of the auctions PWCC put on last night from each of the above issues and only if they already had more than 2 bids.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys bidding had a ton of bid retractions. I was actually quite surprised by auctions having 1 to 5 bids just littered with guys/gals having double digit retractions. A lot of these are fast approaching that massive 25 limit PWCC set for themselves recently. All in 6 long months. I think i've had 1 retraction in 18 years.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Bowman-...-/351913844928

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Bowman-...-/351913843381

Some of the culprits that had the massive bid retractions are below (not all are represented in the above 4 auctions -- i think all but 3). If you poke around the above stated issues then you can find these gals/guys bidding on multiple items and more bidders with similar retractions. I ignored those with very high bid activity, unless they had high bid retractions (high bid retractions was the only thing i was looking for).

Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
i***i.........................997................. ........20
k***g.......................784................... ......16
c***t.......................434................... ......11
8***H......................117.................... .....12
U***I.......................9347.................. .....17
8***7......................5772................... .....13
a***m.....................24193................... ....18
o***p......................39699.................. .....17
c***n......................1936................... .......9

[irv]

Originally Posted by dariushou

It is sad, very sad indeed. Unfortunately, the above examples are just the obvious ones. I've been collecting off and on for 30 odd years and what i've seen lately and over the past couple of years is just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm no expert on ebay bidding, but i find it odd that most, if not all, of PWCC auctions get early bids and strong ones at that. High feedback/ low feedback...it doesn't matter. PWCC gets them. It didn't take me long back in 1998 when i started ebaying to realize that my early bids were actually pushing the price higher. At least that's what my inner self was telling me so i started sniping or doing BIN, only. I know there are valid reason for bidding early and by god it is an auction. One valid reason I hear is that early bids could scare some away because they don't want to compete. But the basis for that reason is to get good deals. Does anyone get good deals, at least consistently with PWCC auctions? Maybe, i don't know. Some may also like to put a low bid in to put it on their radar in "My Ebay"...who knows...i've done that.

Anyhow, tonight, i wanted to spend all of 10 minutes seeing who were some of the early bidders on some of PWCC's latest auctions. I didn't care if it was a high dollar item...just PWCC's latest auctions (put on last night or early today). I mainly looked at a few of the 1950 Callahans and 1949-1950 Bowmans.

I'm by no means saying what i saw constitutes shilling...way to early to tell. I will be honest and admit i only looked at a few of the auctions PWCC put on last night from each of the above issues and only if they already had more than 2 bids.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys bidding had a ton of bid retractions. I was actually quite surprised by auctions having 1 to 5 bids just littered with guys/gals having double digit retractions. A lot of these are fast approaching that massive 25 limit PWCC set for themselves recently. All in 6 long months. I think i've had 1 retraction in 18 years.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Bowman-...-/351913844928

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Bowman-...-/351913843381

Some of the culprits that had the massive bid retractions are below (not all are represented in the above 4 auctions -- i think all but 3). If you poke around the above stated issues then you can find these gals/guys bidding on multiple items and more bidders with similar retractions. I ignored those with very high bid activity, unless they had high bid retractions (high bid retractions was the only thing i was looking for).

Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
i***i.........................997................. ........20
k***g.......................784................... ......16
c***t.......................434................... ......11
8***H......................117.................... .....12
U***I.......................9347.................. .....17
8***7......................5772................... .....13
a***m.....................24193................... ....18
o***p......................39699.................. .....17
c***n......................1936................... .......9

I have wondered the same thing (1st bold) but I do so only for what you mentioned (2nd bold)

You definitely have some interesting info/observations there. I am going to have to start paying closer attention to all auctions!

Thanks for the info

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

I so don't believe that. Yes, there were clearly some shenanigans on certain cards. I think we all agree on that. The market as a whole for high end rare vintage cards? Going up. No doubt in my mind. Unless the whole economy collapses like 2008, prices generally keep going higher.

[dariushou]

The whole thing was manipulated. Not just key rookie cards. Look at my previous post. Pick an issue or card it doesn't matter. PWCC's auctions are tainted in my opinion and they sell everything. It's also a relative argument. If a bunch of cards go up in price, such as key rookies, it tends to bring other cards up, too. Then it busts and everyone holding the cards who bought high loses out. If ebay gave more clarity we could easily show a lot more examples of fraud -- don't forget that you can't see anything after like 6-months, other than the image through VCP. It'll take lawsuits and handcuffs to enlighten everyone to the extent of the manipulation and fraud. Unfortunately, people's memory is short term and don't remember shill rings hauled off to jail in the past. The problems only got worse.

editing this to add that i just went to the latest pwcc auctions they put up today (1955 topps)-- i literally clicked only like 10 auctions, including 1 of the clemente's. Some of the bidders i listed in my previous post were of course bidding, but I found a few others with tons of retractions in last 6-months. Seriously, who has this many retractions and do they all come together and bid on PWCC auctions. Again, ignored the guys with huge bid activity with pwcc, unless they had a ton of retractions:


Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
7***0.........................1846................ . ........17
f***0.........................780................. .. ......11
1***a.........................391................. .. ......11
o***j..........................1935............... ..... .....9

I would post links to the auctions and can if you really want me too, but just click on a few with more than 2 bids. There are tons of them...not like a needle in a haystack.

[Snapolit1]

In the past I put down a ton of early bids on PWCC cards. Just so they show up on my eBay bidding list. I bid early and forget about them for a few weeks. I get outbid quickly and then just have a marker down and move on. Do the same thing for most of the major AHs. I would ascribe zero to early bidding.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by dariushou

The whole thing was manipulated. Not just key rookie cards. Look at my previous post. Pick an issue or card it doesn't matter. PWCC's auctions are tainted in my opinion and they sell everything. It's also a relative argument. If a bunch of cards go up in price, such as key rookies, it tends to bring other cards up, too. Then it busts and everyone holding the cards who bought high loses out. If ebay gave more clarity we could easily show a lot more examples of fraud -- don't forget that you can't see anything after like 6-months, other than the image through VCP. It'll take lawsuits and handcuffs to enlighten everyone to the extent of the manipulation and fraud. Unfortunately, people's memory is short term and don't remember shill rings hauled off to jail in the past. The problems only got worse.

editing this to add that i just went to the latest pwcc auctions they put up today (1955 topps)-- i literally clicked only like 10 auctions, including 1 of the clemente's. Some of the bidders i listed in my previous post were of course bidding, but I found a few others with tons of retractions in last 6-months. Seriously, who has this many retractions and do they all come together and bid on PWCC auctions. Again, ignored the guys with huge bid activity with pwcc, unless they had a ton of retractions:


Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
7***0.........................1846................ . ........17
f***0.........................780................. .. ......11
1***a.........................391................. .. ......11
o***j..........................1935............... ..... .....9

I would post links to the auctions and can if you really want me too, but just click on a few with more than 2 bids. There are tons of them...not like a needle in a haystack.

This is fucking ridiculous. How simple can it be for ebay to get this under control. it clearly happens this way by design. I do a lot of bids with PWCC and still am very happy with their service. I snipe a number and walk away, so whatever these bastards are doing doesn't affect me because I bid what I'm willing to pay.

Shilling, retracting, bid rigging, vote rigging, etc, has been going on since the cave-man. Keep your sanity and bid what you think the card is worth, and assume you will be shilled. And don't come on here crying about it later.

Keep in mind, IMO, we've been in a bull-market for cards 5-8 years. When the tables turn, these guys will be eating shit for dinner, and I'll be serving it.

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I so don't believe that. Yes, there were clearly some shenanigans on certain cards. I think we all agree on that. The market as a whole for high end rare vintage cards? Going up. No doubt in my mind. Unless the whole economy collapses like 2008, prices generally keep going higher.

There was major rigging on key players and several folks figured it out independently and compared notes. Without VCP it is very difficult to do, but with VCP I could go through and see a distinct pattern of rigging auctions and shilling. Don't believe it then go do this and report back. Pick Rose rookies, Clemente, Koufax, Ryan...

Check prices from March to now and tell me what caused these cards to go up 2-3 fold in value?

Then tell me what economic or card market forces caused them to drop from September to now, and basically all gains were lost and then some during that time. Keep in mind the US stock market is at a record high right now, so it is not like 2000-01 or 2008-09 when the market indices dropped big time.

I will hang up a listen. Here is a chart to help get you started.

[ezez420]

Where is Mr Bob and his hotcakes and sausage? Havent heard him open up trap lately.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?