Interesting Ebay Bidding

[dariushou]

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.

[HawkFan70]

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Chris Helmers

[Leon]

Brent and team are doing a great job.
As you are new you might not have noticed the bold print at the top of every page (just look above here) so here it is again, for the future....(and for all new members who might not know)
If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post.

Even if the opinion is a positive note a members full name needs to be next to it per the rules.
thanks

Originally Posted by HawkFan70

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. We also consigned a 1952 Topps Mays and it went for more than we expected. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[HawkFan70]

Sorry Leon.....I added my name.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.

There are many BIN's as well that are fake on ebay as well.

[KendallCat]

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by KendallCat

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

I think shilling your card at an auction house is much riskier. If the increments are getting up to a few hundred dollar range, often times one bid pushes it over the top. And if you are talking a $50,000 or a $75,000 card, there is always the big risk that the next incremental step up the ladder is the end of it. Would be a bitch to be the high bidder on a $100,000 card you really didn't want. Even if you can settle up with your friend later, your still paying the auction house a vig of $10,000 or $20,000.

[Republicaninmass]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

[dariushou]

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

The last 5 sales of the the 55 Clemente in PSA 7 have been as follows:

$7168
$8811
$9300
$7788
$8601

Go back a few months to June/July and sales for the same grade were as follows:

$25000
$23109
$27000
$31070
$25100


A couple of these I know are legit sales and know the buyer(s), but the interesting thing on these is that two months earlier these cards could be had for $7000-9000. Interesting thing was on the PSA 8's of the Clemente the same bidder, a***t, came in second on almost every PSA 8 during the May-August time period. This bidder had 63 bid retractions in 6 months!! Not only that rather than snipe auctions he would bid them up from day one and continue to bid basically against himself and lose. Think about it - if you really wanted to win why continued bidding it up, losing every auction, have 63 retractions.... Maybe why someone got banned from Heritage, Goodwin, REA, and for a short time PWCC.

Notice the price changes in the market for Clemente, Koufax, and Rose from March/April, huge spike in May-August, and then plummet from August to now. Some had to do with people speculating certain high end examples in high grades pulling up the lower grades, but a lot of it was manipulation and fraud using retractions. If they want to clean up the industry once you have 3 retractions you are out for 6 months on eBay. Next time it happens it is for a year.

Keith Conrad