Interesting Ebay Bidding

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by KendallCat

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

I think shilling your card at an auction house is much riskier. If the increments are getting up to a few hundred dollar range, often times one bid pushes it over the top. And if you are talking a $50,000 or a $75,000 card, there is always the big risk that the next incremental step up the ladder is the end of it. Would be a bitch to be the high bidder on a $100,000 card you really didn't want. Even if you can settle up with your friend later, your still paying the auction house a vig of $10,000 or $20,000.

[Republicaninmass]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

[dariushou]

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

I asked this a while ago but received no answer.

The question was, if you were outbid and then moved on and purchased/spent your money on other cards, then were told you were now the high bidder, as the previous highest bidder retracted, are you now obligated to purchase that card?

Originally Posted by dariushou

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

Great observations! It is something I admittedly don't look at or even think about looking at, (until now) but at the same time, I don't play in this high end part of the collecting world so I am glad that there is a good chance I haven't purchased any shilled up cards.

Personally, I hate reading that these types of things go on, as, imo, they are only hurting the hobby.

[dariushou]

It is sad, very sad indeed. Unfortunately, the above examples are just the obvious ones. I've been collecting off and on for 30 odd years and what i've seen lately and over the past couple of years is just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm no expert on ebay bidding, but i find it odd that most, if not all, of PWCC auctions get early bids and strong ones at that. High feedback/ low feedback...it doesn't matter. PWCC gets them. It didn't take me long back in 1998 when i started ebaying to realize that my early bids were actually pushing the price higher. At least that's what my inner self was telling me so i started sniping or doing BIN, only. I know there are valid reason for bidding early and by god it is an auction. One valid reason I hear is that early bids could scare some away because they don't want to compete. But the basis for that reason is to get good deals. Does anyone get good deals, at least consistently with PWCC auctions? Maybe, i don't know. Some may also like to put a low bid in to put it on their radar in "My Ebay"...who knows...i've done that.

Anyhow, tonight, i wanted to spend all of 10 minutes seeing who were some of the early bidders on some of PWCC's latest auctions. I didn't care if it was a high dollar item...just PWCC's latest auctions (put on last night or early today). I mainly looked at a few of the 1950 Callahans and 1949-1950 Bowmans.

I'm by no means saying what i saw constitutes shilling...way to early to tell. I will be honest and admit i only looked at a few of the auctions PWCC put on last night from each of the above issues and only if they already had more than 2 bids.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys bidding had a ton of bid retractions. I was actually quite surprised by auctions having 1 to 5 bids just littered with guys/gals having double digit retractions. A lot of these are fast approaching that massive 25 limit PWCC set for themselves recently. All in 6 long months. I think i've had 1 retraction in 18 years.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Bowman-...-/351913844928

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Bowman-...-/351913843381

Some of the culprits that had the massive bid retractions are below (not all are represented in the above 4 auctions -- i think all but 3). If you poke around the above stated issues then you can find these gals/guys bidding on multiple items and more bidders with similar retractions. I ignored those with very high bid activity, unless they had high bid retractions (high bid retractions was the only thing i was looking for).

Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
i***i.........................997................. ........20
k***g.......................784................... ......16
c***t.......................434................... ......11
8***H......................117.................... .....12
U***I.......................9347.................. .....17
8***7......................5772................... .....13
a***m.....................24193................... ....18
o***p......................39699.................. .....17
c***n......................1936................... .......9

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

I so don't believe that. Yes, there were clearly some shenanigans on certain cards. I think we all agree on that. The market as a whole for high end rare vintage cards? Going up. No doubt in my mind. Unless the whole economy collapses like 2008, prices generally keep going higher.

[ezez420]

Where is Mr Bob and his hotcakes and sausage? Havent heard him open up trap lately.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

The last 5 sales of the the 55 Clemente in PSA 7 have been as follows:

$7168
$8811
$9300
$7788
$8601

Go back a few months to June/July and sales for the same grade were as follows:

$25000
$23109
$27000
$31070
$25100


A couple of these I know are legit sales and know the buyer(s), but the interesting thing on these is that two months earlier these cards could be had for $7000-9000. Interesting thing was on the PSA 8's of the Clemente the same bidder, a***t, came in second on almost every PSA 8 during the May-August time period. This bidder had 63 bid retractions in 6 months!! Not only that rather than snipe auctions he would bid them up from day one and continue to bid basically against himself and lose. Think about it - if you really wanted to win why continued bidding it up, losing every auction, have 63 retractions.... Maybe why someone got banned from Heritage, Goodwin, REA, and for a short time PWCC.

Notice the price changes in the market for Clemente, Koufax, and Rose from March/April, huge spike in May-August, and then plummet from August to now. Some had to do with people speculating certain high end examples in high grades pulling up the lower grades, but a lot of it was manipulation and fraud using retractions. If they want to clean up the industry once you have 3 retractions you are out for 6 months on eBay. Next time it happens it is for a year.

Keith Conrad