Ichiro

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

^^ This.

Ichiro had a .943 career OPS in Japan. His OPS in the Majors is .763, nearly 200 points lower.

If that doesn't clue somebody in as to the disparity in talent between the two leagues, nothing will.

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

He has 2,980 hits in the bigs. 2,429 of those are singles. How the hell does a player have over 10,000 Big League at bats, and only 551 extra base hits?

[packs]

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[HRBAKER]

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

8 RBI?

How about 60.

[the 'stache]

It was a poor edit. Sorry. I had a brain fart.

RBIs wouldn't be at all relevant in a comment of how few of his 262 hits were extra base hits. I hope you can see that I meant 8 home runs, and not 8 RBIs. The Mariners were pretty bad then, but if Ichiro only drove in 8 with 262 hits, I think we'd be looking at the worst team in MLB history, lol.

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

8 RBI?

How about 60.

[the 'stache]

Honestly, Packs? Anybody placing Japanese league and MLB hits on the same level certainly should be thinking about that disparity. They may both represent the top professional baseball leagues in their respective countries, but they're just not the same. Maybe not quite apples and oranges, but different fruits, certainly.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Ichiro. If I built a team, would I put him on it? Oh, hell yes. The guy is a fantastic pure hitter, and one of the best outfielders I've ever seen. He reminds me a lot of Clemente in right. Great range, great instincts, and at least for the first ten years of his career here, maybe longer, he had an absolute cannon. I haven't seen him as much the last few years, so I can't comment on his arm strength now. But it was, and may still be, elite.

And, I certainly respect the man, and his remarkable work ethic. He plays every game hard. That's the kind of quite, dignified leader you want on a team. Rah rah guys are fine sometimes, especially when a club house is down, and needs a boost. But leading by example has always earned my respect.

But this whole "Ichiro passes Rose" narrative is really irritating to me. Rose may be a pariah within MLB circles now, and a complete tool in real life. And, it's a real shame that the man off the field isn't nearly as great as he was on it. But the man faced the best competition in the world for every one of those hits, and I think it cheapens his record to say that Ichiro somehow "passed" him on the all-time hits list, even if it's made clear that it's some "professional baseball record", and not an MLB only record.

Until somebody passes Rose on the all-time hit list by hits clawed out in the Major League teams only, like him or not, Rose is the all-time hit king. We can all play the "what if Ichiro started here, and had those extra nine seasons" game, and it would make for some fun projecting (especially to a stat nerd like me). But that would be nothing but conjecture.

Originally Posted by packs

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[packs]

I agree on Rose but what I'm saying is these posts seem to be trying to undermine his accomplishments in some way, or take away from what he's done, which I think is wrong. It wasn't Ichiro's fault he was born in Japan. He was obligated to play there for 9 seasons before he could become a free agent. He didn't play in Japan to duck the MLB, and he didn't play in Japan because he wasn't good enough for the MLB. He played there because he was obligated. So factor in that lack of freedom when discussing his career in two leagues instead of saying Ichiro faced weak competition, his hits aren't worth as much.

[frankbmd]

Regarding Ichiro's propensity for hitting singles instead of doubles and triples.

In Little League his coach probably repeated the mantra that "a walk is as good as a hit" over and over.

Ichiro had a learning disability and heard "a hit is as good a walk" over and over.
So he was just following instructions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As the NY Times put it last year, 4256 hits and a big error.

As for Ichiro, I had not realized he never played in a WS. His teams only made the playoffs twice.

[the 'stache]

Hold the door....hold the door....hold door...hold door....Hodor...

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Regarding Ichiro's propensity for hitting singles instead of doubles and triples.

In Little League his coach probably repeated the mantra that "a walk is as good as a hit" over and over.

Ichiro had a learning disability and heard "a hit is as good a walk" over and over.
So he was just following instructions.

[the 'stache]

I didn't know he couldn't leave Japan for nine years. I admit to knowing very little about the Japanese league.

I think, if anything, Ichiro's professional baseball hit total is a testament to his perseverance. And look at him now. A lot of people thought his career was almost over. Well, he's 42, and hitting .353 in 133 at bats. And, he's walked 17 times vs 8 strikeouts. He's still got fabulous hand eye coordination.

A year ago, I questioned if he'd ever get to 3,000. Now, it seems it would take an act of God, or Mothra, to keep him from getting there. And I will cheer loudly when he does.

Originally Posted by packs

I agree on Rose but what I'm saying is these posts seem to be trying to undermine his accomplishments in some way, or take away from what he's done, which I think is wrong. It wasn't Ichiro's fault he was born in Japan. He was obligated to play there for 9 seasons before he could become a free agent. He didn't play in Japan to duck the MLB, and he didn't play in Japan because he wasn't good enough for the MLB. He played there because he was obligated. So factor in that lack of freedom when discussing his career in two leagues instead of saying Ichiro faced weak competition, his hits aren't worth as much.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by packs

I agree on Rose but what I'm saying is these posts seem to be trying to undermine his accomplishments in some way, or take away from what he's done, which I think is wrong. It wasn't Ichiro's fault he was born in Japan. He was obligated to play there for 9 seasons before he could become a free agent. He didn't play in Japan to duck the MLB, and he didn't play in Japan because he wasn't good enough for the MLB. He played there because he was obligated. So factor in that lack of freedom when discussing his career in two leagues instead of saying Ichiro faced weak competition, his hits aren't worth as much.

That certainly wasn't the intention of any of my posts. I maintain that Japanese baseball is of a much lesser quality than MLB, but that point wasn't to undermine Ichiro and all that he's done. Honestly I don't know why every accomplishment someone achieves has to be compared to someone else's accomplishment. Why can't Rose and Ichiro both be great? Why does it have to devolve into a quien es mas macho competition? My whole point is the qualifier "professional" tacked in front of "hit leader" makes it a false statement when trying to attribute that title to Ichiro. Nothing more. If you want to say "Hits at the highest professional level available to him at the time leader", while it doesn't roll off the tongue quite as fluidly, it is more correct to say.

[packs]

In Japan they used to have a rule that said you needed to play 9 seasons in NPB before you could become a free agent. There were 2 people who skirted the rule using the same agent and loophole to get out of their 9 year commitments: Hideo Nomo and Alfonso Soriano. Now they've refined the process to include the posting system, but even Darvish had to put in 7 seasons before he could get out.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 Triples, and 8 Home Runs and 60 RBI .

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[the 'stache]

Thank you, Andy. The post, as I'd originally written it, was a bit more involved. Then I decided to narrow it down a bit, and forgot to amend the last stat from RBI to home runs.

I do have brain farts from time to time.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[bn2cardz]

. double post .