Ichiro

[chaddurbin]

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

ichiro--i wish you would've started your mlb career at age 21...what could've been.

[bn2cardz]

Ichiro has the Single Season Hits record with 262 in 2004
He is in the top 20 two other seasons (242 in 2001 and 238 in 2007).

Rose's top year is 230, enough to put him only tied for 36 on that list.

On the other hand when comparing the age 27-41 stats for both players Rose has 2970 hits and Ichiro has 2935. This is because Ichiro started trailing off last year. If you don't include their 41 year old stats then Ichiro is ahead 2844 to Rose's 2798. It is hard to say what would have been prior to Ichiro's age 27 season, but I believe there are arguments on both sides that are convincing.

For me there is no clear answer who should be considered better, but Ichiro is certainly Rose's closest counterpart.

[packs]

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

^^ This.

Ichiro had a .943 career OPS in Japan. His OPS in the Majors is .763, nearly 200 points lower.

If that doesn't clue somebody in as to the disparity in talent between the two leagues, nothing will.

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

He has 2,980 hits in the bigs. 2,429 of those are singles. How the hell does a player have over 10,000 Big League at bats, and only 551 extra base hits?

[packs]

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[HRBAKER]

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

8 RBI?

How about 60.

[the 'stache]

Honestly, Packs? Anybody placing Japanese league and MLB hits on the same level certainly should be thinking about that disparity. They may both represent the top professional baseball leagues in their respective countries, but they're just not the same. Maybe not quite apples and oranges, but different fruits, certainly.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Ichiro. If I built a team, would I put him on it? Oh, hell yes. The guy is a fantastic pure hitter, and one of the best outfielders I've ever seen. He reminds me a lot of Clemente in right. Great range, great instincts, and at least for the first ten years of his career here, maybe longer, he had an absolute cannon. I haven't seen him as much the last few years, so I can't comment on his arm strength now. But it was, and may still be, elite.

And, I certainly respect the man, and his remarkable work ethic. He plays every game hard. That's the kind of quite, dignified leader you want on a team. Rah rah guys are fine sometimes, especially when a club house is down, and needs a boost. But leading by example has always earned my respect.

But this whole "Ichiro passes Rose" narrative is really irritating to me. Rose may be a pariah within MLB circles now, and a complete tool in real life. And, it's a real shame that the man off the field isn't nearly as great as he was on it. But the man faced the best competition in the world for every one of those hits, and I think it cheapens his record to say that Ichiro somehow "passed" him on the all-time hits list, even if it's made clear that it's some "professional baseball record", and not an MLB only record.

Until somebody passes Rose on the all-time hit list by hits clawed out in the Major League teams only, like him or not, Rose is the all-time hit king. We can all play the "what if Ichiro started here, and had those extra nine seasons" game, and it would make for some fun projecting (especially to a stat nerd like me). But that would be nothing but conjecture.

Originally Posted by packs

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 Triples, and 8 Home Runs and 60 RBI .

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[the 'stache]

Thank you, Andy. The post, as I'd originally written it, was a bit more involved. Then I decided to narrow it down a bit, and forgot to amend the last stat from RBI to home runs.

I do have brain farts from time to time.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[bn2cardz]

. double post .

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter.

No.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

Exactly.

Tuffy Rhodes. Nuff said...if you don't know, Google his stats in MLB versus Japan. On the flip side, compare Kaz Matsui's stats in Japan to what he did once he came over here.

I don't even know if Triple-A is a fair comparison. While there are some great talents in Japanese baseball, the league in the overall is significantly weaker than MLB. You don't see star players going from the US to Japan, you see guys trying to hang onto a job. And with few exceptions, the players coming over from Japan do not have nearly the same success. Ichiro being the obvious exception.

[HRBAKER]

Of course Single A is professional baseball.

[FourStrikes]

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

it's been a while, but...10 GG's is impressive as well.

would have LOVED to see him in MLB earlier, as his #'s would have
been even sicker as well!

lovi'n me some Ichiro!

[DaClyde]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

K is used for thousand. Technically wouldn't 3000K be 3,000,000?

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by DaClyde

K is used for thousand. Technically wouldn't 3000K be 3,000,000?

I think he's including Ichiro's Strat-o-Matic hits.