Ichiro

[packs]

No one is suggesting his total hits from both leagues mean he is the all time MLB hit leader.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by packs

No one is suggesting his total hits from both leagues mean he is the all time MLB hit leader.

Ichiro doesn't have the MLB record, but the pro baseball record.

[chaddurbin]

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

ichiro--i wish you would've started your mlb career at age 21...what could've been.

[bn2cardz]

Ichiro has the Single Season Hits record with 262 in 2004
He is in the top 20 two other seasons (242 in 2001 and 238 in 2007).

Rose's top year is 230, enough to put him only tied for 36 on that list.

On the other hand when comparing the age 27-41 stats for both players Rose has 2970 hits and Ichiro has 2935. This is because Ichiro started trailing off last year. If you don't include their 41 year old stats then Ichiro is ahead 2844 to Rose's 2798. It is hard to say what would have been prior to Ichiro's age 27 season, but I believe there are arguments on both sides that are convincing.

For me there is no clear answer who should be considered better, but Ichiro is certainly Rose's closest counterpart.

[packs]

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

^^ This.

Ichiro had a .943 career OPS in Japan. His OPS in the Majors is .763, nearly 200 points lower.

If that doesn't clue somebody in as to the disparity in talent between the two leagues, nothing will.

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

He has 2,980 hits in the bigs. 2,429 of those are singles. How the hell does a player have over 10,000 Big League at bats, and only 551 extra base hits?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter.

No.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

Exactly.

Tuffy Rhodes. Nuff said...if you don't know, Google his stats in MLB versus Japan. On the flip side, compare Kaz Matsui's stats in Japan to what he did once he came over here.

I don't even know if Triple-A is a fair comparison. While there are some great talents in Japanese baseball, the league in the overall is significantly weaker than MLB. You don't see star players going from the US to Japan, you see guys trying to hang onto a job. And with few exceptions, the players coming over from Japan do not have nearly the same success. Ichiro being the obvious exception.

[HRBAKER]

Of course Single A is professional baseball.

[FourStrikes]

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

it's been a while, but...10 GG's is impressive as well.

would have LOVED to see him in MLB earlier, as his #'s would have
been even sicker as well!

lovi'n me some Ichiro!

[DaClyde]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

K is used for thousand. Technically wouldn't 3000K be 3,000,000?