Were they the best......

[KCRfan1]

Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

[HRBAKER]

Steve,
I think you were very generous not mentioning steroids while opining about Clemens when you did so about Bonds. Maybe he was amazing but I am glad he ended up one win behind Greg Maddux. That's karma for you.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Steve,
I think you were very generous not mentioning steroids while opining about Clemens when you did so about Bonds. Maybe he was amazing but I am glad he ended up one win behind Greg Maddux. That's karma for you.

Darn, I'd planned on mentioning it. I got sidetracked on the whole "part time player" thing.

I don't view Clemens use the way I do Bonds. while the two great years in Toronto might be steroids, the years I see as steroid years for him are the ones in NY, and he really wasn't the same sort of pitcher. More of an aging player using to hold on to a career. The part time thing he worked while with Houston shows he really wasn't ready mentally to retire, but also really couldn't perform over a full season anymore.
Eckersley converted to being a reliever, and has said that worked very well for him. Going from a washed up starter because he'd lose both velocity and motion after a few innings to a reliever who could just fire it for an inning or maybe two was a revelation. But it's also something a lot of starters egos can't handle until it's too late.

Bonds use I see as a far sadder situation. I think he'd have set the career record a couple years after he did without using. He really needed the admiration, and couldn't pass it up short term to get the big reward in the longer term. He probably would have played even a couple years past that as well, Maybe a farewell year with Pittsburg? But the steroids and his attitude made him essentially unsignable once the record had been set.

I do have a bit of a Boston bias. I might be among the few Boston fans to openly admit it.

Steve b

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

... I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

I think there would have been some substantial innuendo about by this point. So for now I'll say No. (I do have to say, over 500 doubles at this point is incredible for this day and age).
No one thought when Jeter was first coming into the league that he would ever have this sort of a career either. Haven't heard a word about his juicing either.

In this skeptical day and age, maybe sometimes someone is just having a great career?

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Paul S

I think there would have been some substantial innuendo about by this point. So for now I'll say No. (I do have to say, over 500 doubles at this point is incredible for this day and age).
No one thought when Jeter was first coming into the league that he would ever have this sort of a career either. Haven't heard a word about his juicing either.

In this skeptical day and age, maybe sometimes someone is just having a great career?

Jeter was a first round selection, 6th pick, and expected to produce. The power numbers put up by Albert are legendary. You are comparing apples and oranges with the two. They are completely different hitters.

[frankh8147]

Interesting thread..out of curiosity, did you leave Greg Maddux and Ken Griffey Jr. off this list because everyone already knows they were some of the greatest of all time?
As per the list- Bonds and Clemens stand out- if they hadn't cheated, I would consider them two of the best ever but now i'm honestly too torn to even know what to think of them.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by frankh8147

Interesting thread..out of curiosity, did you leave Greg Maddux and Ken Griffey Jr. off this list because everyone already knows they were some of the greatest of all time?
As per the list- Bonds and Clemens stand out- if they hadn't cheated, I would consider them two of the best ever but now i'm honestly too torn to even know what to think of them.

Well this thread was about perception.

The votes came in for the roid guys to show most know they were top in their class.

The main point being, most voted against shefield BUT for Jeter.

Shefields numbers are awesome though perceived in a dab light and jeters numbers don't reflect a top player in any season but people think hes one of the best.

Funny a few months ago, people calling up mike francessa saying Jeter was better that Joe D and Mickey, what a joke, lol just funny how people view certain players.

Jeter and Molitor have the exact same numbers, very good players HOF players, but not in the conversation of the best of their time and certainly not the best of all time.

Yep Griffey and Maddux were also the best of their time, but The vote was more of an experiment in perception.

[KCRfan1]

Roids or not, you still have to hit the ball. A lot of players may have juiced during that era, yet did not produce outrageous stats and numbers. Loved watching McGwire in the HR contest at Fenway, Bonds taking swings at the plate during games, Giambi as well. I just wish I could mute Chris Berman during McGwire's AB in Fenway and listen to the sound of the bat and the crowd.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Roids or not, you still have to hit the ball. A lot of players may have juiced during that era, yet did not produce outrageous stats and numbers. Loved watching McGwire in the HR contest at Fenway, Bonds taking swings at the plate during games, Giambi as well. I just wish I could mute Chris Berman during McGwire's AB in Fenway and listen to the sound of the bat and the crowd.

Going off that, I would just love to be in am empty park and hear it thundering

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Jeter was a first round selection, 6th pick, and expected to produce. The power numbers put up by Albert are legendary. You are comparing apples and oranges with the two. They are completely different hitters.

Lou, not comparing them against their mutual attributes. But for every first round pick who is expected to produce there are so many other first round or early picks who we have never heard from. So much for expectations. One never knows how they will blossom. That was my point. Ya just can't really predict until they get to the big leagues.

[KCRfan1]

Derek Jeter is a great one. Growing up, I hated the Yankees because my Royals would play them in the playoffs and lose. Looking back as I have gotten older, I have admiration for The Boss and those Yankee teams from the mid to late 70's. I wish the Royals owner had the drive and passion to win like George did. David Glass has deep pockets, there is no excuse.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

I only showed their first 12 years (since Pujols has only played 12 thus far) so the fact that Bond's last three were low doesn't matter.

Also to say that no one saw the career coming is wrong, being in the Stadium the day he debut I know that people were expecting things from him because my dad even told me to watch this guy because he was going to be good as he walked up to the plate. He was drafted late because there was uncertainty about his age, not because he wasn't good.

To say that he may not go anywhere from now on doesn't negate the first 10 years of his career. He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I only showed their first 12 years (since Pujols has only played 12 thus far) so the fact that Bond's last three were low doesn't matter.

Also to say that no one saw the career coming is wrong, being in the Stadium the day he debut I know that people were expecting things from him because my dad even told me to watch this guy because he was going to be good as he walked up to the plate. He was drafted late because there was uncertainty about his age, not because he wasn't good.

To say that he may not go anywhere from now on doesn't negate the first 10 years of his career. He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.

I believe Pujols was going to be a first or second round (or early around that number) pick by the Rays that year. The scout who got Pujols pretty much made the Cards draft him, RAVED about him in Juco and predicted he'd be a superstar, other scouts viewed him as a guy with moderate power, fat, and a bad fielding first baseman.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

And who knows how old is he too lol

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

And who knows how old is he too lol

He's not 33, he's not 33, you can show me indisputable genetic evidence and I still won't believe it.

Here he is at "19"



This one 18!



And the last one 19!