Wentz, Nash and Bill Mastro

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

OK so Mr. Simon are you insinuating that I made a racial slur?? My comment referencing Sanford & Sons was made in comparison to the two guys as JUNK dealers trying to pass of garbage. I should have imagined you left-wingers have been waiting to jump on someone to cry and pull the"race card". Actually, ole Red Fox had more class than these two parasites.

Things have changed in the 40 years since that show was on TV. In 2013, what you wrote has negative racial connotations. And I wouldn't suggest quoting this guy either. Like I said, times have changed in the past 40 years.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Things have changed in the 40 years since that show was on TV. In 2013, what you wrote has negative racial connotations. And I wouldn't suggest quoting this guy either. Like I said, times have changed in the past 40 years.

I'm not sure if it was Archie Bunker or Cobb & Edwards who said this:

"The lord may be smilin' on the sheeps, but they still wind up as lamb chops."

[sbfinley]

Mr. O'Keefe

I don't always agree with your opinions, but I could accept your statement at face value until you reached the subject of Cobb and Edwards. I have no room for people who substitute disillusion in place of reason. The card is not real. Anyone who has a minimal knowledge of the set can tell as much from just a scan. My wife could look at it and point out a half a dozen issues with it within 30 seconds.

The only reason the topic of this card continues, sadly, is because of the race of the owners. This issue is not only the product of the rhetoric some less than poetic voices on a internet message board used, but also because it has become the irrational propaganda the two use to further their imaginary cause. Forget race, that is illegitimate to the issue at hand, the card is not real.

Frankly as an educated member of the hobby, your statement "I’ve never said their card is authentic. I’ve never said it is inauthentic. It is not my place to determine that" is a weak statement to cement a position of neutrality. You might not be a paid consultant or grader for a TPG company, but you have a concise enough knowledge of the hobby to know without uncertainty that a.) The card is fake and b.) there is absolutely no tangible evidence to back up the claim that the card is a "pre-set test proof" or whatever they claim to call it.

This issue will continue until Cobb and Edwards do the only logical thing, which is to have the card examined by one of the renowned and respected TPG companies. Because until that moment arrives they will continue their waltz in public and key members of the hobby, including many on this board, will have to continue to defend their obviously deserved opinion regarding the card. Thus the cycle with continue ad nausea.

Steven Finley

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Mr. O'Keefe

My guess is that you are a liberal Obama supporter. Just curious.....where do you stand on gun control and minimum wage??

Unless this is an inside joke between you and the OP, statements such as this that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter at hand are partially to blame for the undeserved exposure that Cobb and Edwards have received. It is ignorant to discuss matters of race, political affiliation, or religious preference in the context of a hobby such baseball cards. We all come from different backgrounds, but are brought together because we intrinsically value pictures of long dead sporting men. No more. No less.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

brought together because we intrinsically value pictures of long dead sporting men.

This should be on back of the Net54 t-shirt

[sbfinley]

Trademarked.

[autograf]

MOK has everything to gain by the Cobb/Edwards card authenticity NOT being determined and stirring things up, much like his post did than for the issue to be settled. Better to create and stir the news than to report it..............an issue all our media has to bear today.......newspapers are slinking into the shadows today....cartoons and sudoku only gets them so far.........

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Things have changed in the 40 years since that show was on TV. In 2013, what you wrote has negative racial connotations. And I wouldn't suggest quoting this guy either. Like I said, times have changed in the past 40 years.

The show that included that guy actually helped change things. The over the top character as a caricature of certain attitudes exposed their silliness.

Sadly the spinoff didn't.

And Sanford and son was actually rather funny.

Steve B

[Rich Klein]

Is that this will create a spirited lunch discussion with Leon and myself on Monday

Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

OK so Mr. Simon are you insinuating that I made a racial slur?? My comment referencing Sanford & Sons was made in comparison to the two guys as JUNK dealers trying to pass of garbage. I should have imagined you left-wingers have been waiting to jump on someone to cry and pull the"race card". Actually, ole Red Fox had more class than these two parasites.

Hey Jason, who ended up with that 52 Mantle? I must have missed the follow up post.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

OK so Mr. Simon are you insinuating that I made a racial slur?? My comment referencing Sanford & Sons was made in comparison to the two guys as JUNK dealers trying to pass of garbage. I should have imagined you left-wingers have been waiting to jump on someone to cry and pull the"race card". Actually, ole Red Fox had more class than these two parasites.

Wow,,, you are touchy,,, I said nothing about race,,I quoted your remark about Obama, gun control and minimum wage, it is obvious you are very, very defensive over something but I don't know what it could be. I did not quote your Sanford and Son remark.

You berate left wingers and liberals in a forum which expressly prohibits political discussion, how about neanderthals and reactionaries? Why not berate them too,,,didn't all those years of watching fair and balanced have any affect on you,,, if the racial shoe fits then put it on Jason.
And you voted for a loser, maybe that is what is so upsetting to you.
This is not Archie Bunker's America anymore.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

...how about neanderthals and reactionaries?

Richard, haven't you seen the Geico commercials? Neanderthals are humans too...sort of. I nearly cried watching the Scrabble game.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Actually, ole Red Fox had more class than these two parasites.

Were you referring to the cuddly animal or Redd Foxx the actor and comedian.

[OTWCards]

So, if I say that Cobb and Edwards are manipulative a$$holes with nary a clue about their attempts at deceiving the public about how they are being treated, does that make me a racist?

I certainly hope not because I've never assigned any criteria to being an a$$hole other than being an a$$hole. I should know . . . I'm pretty good at being an a$$hole when necessary.

[teetwoohsix]

The fake Wagner card is still fake regardless of who has it in their possession.

I re-read the pages in "The Card" regarding this fake. Even the story about it sounds bogus, paying $1,800.00 for a card you know nothing about-just to tuck it away and forget about it? Come on man. Pages 154-155.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

The fake Wagner card is still fake regardless of who has it in their possession.

I re-read the pages in "The Card" regarding this fake. Even the story about it sounds bogus, paying $1,800.00 for a card you know nothing about-just to tuck it away and forget about it? Come on man. Pages 154-155.

Sincerely, Clayton

All pure bullshit.

Their model is unworkable if the goal is to sell the card and for it to stay sold. Anyone foolish enough to buy it would immediately turn around and submit it to PSA or SGC, at which time it would be declared a reprint, a lawsuit would ensue and the judge would order restitution...at the very least. For now they can enjoy their ill-gotten moment in the sun (thanks to people like MOK), but they can't sell the card.

[E93]

My memory could be wrong but didn't a guy in Cincinnati around the time they first came out with it claim that his office was broken into and that a fake Wagner that looked suspiciously like the one they are trying to sell was stolen from his office. I thought the guy came on here to mention that.
JimB

[drc]

---

[Kenny Cole]

Seems to me that the more you post about this issue, the more you give credence to their claims. STFU and let this issue die the death that it needs to is what I think.

[calvindog]

Fellas, Mike O'Keeffe is one of the good guys in this hobby. Put the conspiracy theories away and remember that he and only he sheds public light on the fraudsters among us -- regardless of whether he knows T206s as well as some of the dorks on this board.

[murcerfan]

what card issues does Mr. Okeefe collect ?

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fellas, Mike O'Keeffe is one of the good guys in this hobby. Put the conspiracy theories away and remember that he and only he sheds public light on the fraudsters among us -- regardless of whether he knows T206s as well as some of the dorks on this board.

agreed.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fellas, Mike O'Keeffe is one of the good guys in this hobby. Put the conspiracy theories away and remember that he and only he sheds public light on the fraudsters among us -- regardless of whether he knows T206s as well as some of the dorks on this board.

While I think he gives too much slack to Cobb and Edwards you're right he's the only mainstream media journalist reporting on the fraud in our hobby and for that we should thank him.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Runscott

All pure bullshit.

Their model is unworkable if the goal is to sell the card and for it to stay sold. Anyone foolish enough to buy it would immediately turn around and submit it to PSA or SGC, at which time it would be declared a reprint, a lawsuit would ensue and the judge would order restitution...at the very least. For now they can enjoy their ill-gotten moment in the sun (thanks to people like MOK), but they can't sell the card.

the cobb edwards card aside, a judge is not going to order restitution because something didnt pass psa or sgc. we had that tested on the autograph side and the dealer who sold the autograph won when the autograph did not pass PSA and the buyer sued because of it.

PSA, SGC, JSA, Beckett are not gods whose decision is automatically final in a court of law. The judge might order restitution if it could be proven to be a reprint, no matter who has the proof, but not because it's PSA or SGC rejected. Proving a reprint is a much higher standard than declaring a reprint.

[E93]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

While I think he gives too much slack to Cobb and Edwards you're right he's the only mainstream media journalist reporting on the fraud in our hobby and for that we should thank him.

+1
JimB

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fellas, Mike O'Keeffe is one of the good guys in this hobby. Put the conspiracy theories away and remember that he and only he sheds public light on the fraudsters among us -- regardless of whether he knows T206s as well as some of the dorks on this board.

++

[JasonD08]

Dan

Alteast the 52 Mantle is real. This obvious fake Wagner is not even a good fake. Yes and I made a mistake by trying to compare Samford to these two nut jobs. He had alot more class. Thinking on it I should have compared it to say.....Obama trying to pass off Obamacare in comparison to these two passing off their fake Cobb. No political Pun intended.....just the best example I can come up with.

Jason

[glynparson]

How do those sour grapes taste you whiny little loser. Leon I know you agree with this blowhard but no politics should mean no freaking politics.

[JasonD08]

Glynn

Who's whining?

[Leon]

I would hope we can get this thread back to it's original premise, good or bad. Also, anymore political comments and they will be deleted per the rules. I am not taking sides......

Back to topic, I think O'keefe does expose the bad side of our hobby and that is well needed. Unfortunately, good news doesn't sell. Eventually these two African American guys with the Wagner card will be completely played out and they won't be in the media anymore. It's just a matter of time. No one will ever buy their fake card for real money though I might actually give $50 for it now just to have something to talk about.

[nolemmings]

Deleted , deleted.....Take the politics somewhere else.

[HRBAKER]

Todd,
Tell us what you really think!

[JasonD08]

edited out for political comments.

[nolemmings]

Sorry, I agree politics doesn't belong here but I'm not gonna let a suckerpunch go without response.

BTW, I agree that we should probably cut MOK some slack, as he seems to do more good than harm and we can't always get we want. It does sting to hear/read that this forum is anyway tainted in its racial views on the Wagner card though. As many have said, it is so laughably clear that the Ohio card is a buck fifty reprint with some "work" done that the matter really does not make for debate.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fellas, Mike O'Keeffe is one of the good guys in this hobby. Put the conspiracy theories away and remember that he and only he sheds public light on the fraudsters among us -- regardless of whether he knows T206s as well as some of the dorks on this board.

Amen to that. This hobby needs muckrakers more like Michael O'Keeffe.

As for the Wagner in question, what really needs to happen is that Cobb & Edwards need to agree to have their card scanned with a super high resolution scanner and compare it to a high resolution scans of a known legitimate Wagner where the print nuances can be scrutinized at a macroscopic level. I'm very confident the controversy will go away once the card is reviewed in this manner.

[nolemmings]

Run to the compound Jason!!! We're coming to get you!!

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Leon

Eventually these two African American guys with the Wagner card will be completely played out and they won't be in the media anymore. It's just a matter of time. No one will ever buy their fake card for real money though I might actually give $50 for it now just to have something to talk about.

Whether or not you believe their card is real (I don't) I am still not sure why we have to categorize them. Can't they be just two guys trying to sell a fake?

I think this is what Mr. Okeeffe was referring to is that we can't seem to get away from their skin color.

[OTWCards]

I love these political rants... Amazing how whatever side someone takes, it usually resorts to name calling and insults. I've seen even the most seasoned posters over the years end up in the ER to get their fingers dislodged from the keyboard because they end up typing so hard and so vehemently...

Back to the original topic/point/rant... MOK does has some positive benefit for the hobby, but it seems that his slant is as jaundiced as the political rants we've recently witnessed. The message often gets lost as a result of the contempt that is held within the message.

There's no denying Mastro pulled more than his share of stunts. Damning. No doubt about it. But I cannot believe that I am supposed to take MOK seriously when he recycles the same tired mantra while ignoring the transgressions of others that he DEFINITELY is aware of. Sad that slime sells, but it does.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

edited out for political comments.

No, actually, your last Political post was the one before that one. I edited this one out because that is what I said I was going to do. If you want to remain on this board you will cut the politics out. I don't think I had said..."ok, everybody but Jason has to quit making political remarks."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Whether or not you believe their card is real (I don't) I am still not sure why we have to categorize them. Can't they be just two guys trying to sell a fake?

I think this is what Mr. Okeeffe was referring to is that we can't seem to get away from their skin color.

Yes, good point. They are two guys trying to sell a fake Wagner. And as I told Okeefe on the phone, they haven't done anything wrong (yet)....but if the card Does sell, then they will be fraudsters, regardless of the color of their skin. And that is wrong.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

Eventually these two African American guys with the Wagner card will be completely played out and they won't be in the media anymore.

Do they really need to be qualified by the color of their skin? I do not see anyone else on this thread or any other being referred to by their race or ethnicity.

Back to the topic...There is a need in the hobby for someone to be reporting the dark side but even O'Keeffe refers to his own efforts as stories. I thought that was an interesting word choice. He intentionally reports selectively and I would rather read what is complete and accurate.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Do they really need to be qualified by the color of their skin? I do not see anyone else on this thread or any other being referred to by their race or ethnicity.

I already addressed that. Did you not see my response or ignore it?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Dan

Alteast the 52 Mantle is real.

Jason

Yeah, I know...where is it? Who won it? Where did the money go that you collected? I never saw a followup post, I must have missed it.

[wolf441]

I think the main issue with the Cobb and Edwards "Wagner" is why it has been given so much attention. People try to pass off fake Wagners on ebay all the time, with the description "most likely a reprint, but it WAS found in an old estate sale and does not say reprint anywhere..." I can remember watching the original piece on HBO's Real Sports and being very interested at the beginning of the program. And then they showed the card and I literally laughed out loud. Anyone who says that they cant tell for sure if it's real or if it's fake needs to spend a little more time checking out what a real T206 looks like. Race has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, other than the fact that I don't believe that Cobb and Edwards would have received nearly the attention that they have if they were just two white bozos as they wouldn't be able to play "the card collecting establishment just doesn't want to believe us" card. Just my opinion.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by E93

My memory could be wrong but didn't a guy in Cincinnati around the time they first came out with it claim that his office was broken into and that a fake Wagner that looked suspiciously like the one they are trying to sell was stolen from his office. I thought the guy came on here to mention that.
JimB

No, your memory is right Jim, and this is also on page 155 in the book "The Card". Edward's response to the claim was (according to "The Card"):

"That's more bull$#it",,,"He wouldn't have accused us of stealing his card if we were white".(race card?)

Also from "The Card", page 154....Cobb: "It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket".

That about sums up the persistent effort to turn the fake into the real thing. Believe me, if the card were real, they would've already hit "pay day"; collectors with deep pockets would've already offered them plenty of money for the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

[JasonD08]

Dan

Go read all the previous posts and you will find your answer. Out of $800+ collected after refunds of those who backed out it was all donated through a local group. I am not going to re-hash the old threads. If you had participated thanks. If not, then why bring it up? The Mantle was only to go if all lots were sold....thus bringing the total amount for help alot higher. It was explained before a year ago when it blew up. Nothing to do with a blatant fake wagner and two cons trying to get publicity on it. I thought this was about Wentz, Nash, and Mastro?

Jason

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Dan

Go read all the previous posts and you will find your answer. Out of $800+ collected after refunds of those who backed out it was all donated through a local group. I am not going to re-hash the old threads. If you had participated thanks. If not, then why bring it up? The Mantle was only to go if all lots were sold....thus bringing the total amount for help alot higher. It was explained before a year ago when it blew up. Nothing to do with a blatant fake wagner and two cons trying to get publicity on it. I thought this was about Wentz, Nash, and Mastro?

Jason

I agree with this. Let's please stay on topic. There is enough bickering to go around for everyone. But anything not pertaining to the original post, in this thread, lets take it to another thread, please.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, good point. They are two guys trying to sell a fake Wagner. And as I told Okeefe on the phone, they haven't done anything wrong (yet)....

It's wrong to knowingly try to sell a fake Wagner. I realize you disagree (that they knew it was fake), but even if you ignore what MW said, their excuses for not taking it to SGC or PSA or complete B.S., and should clue people in as to their knowledge and intent.

As far as ignoring them, it's the media that has to do that - the media is what's keeping this stupid story alive, not us. We have ignored them several times, but making excuses for them in a book certainly hasn't helped. Maybe he's a great guy and doing all sorts of wonderful things for our hobby, but with regards to this reprint Wagner, he played the angle that would sell the most books.

Any of us could do all sorts of positive things for the hobby, but make a mistake and everyone on the board is eating you alive. I've enjoyed that experience several times, as has Jeff. Not that I'm claiming I've done anything all that positive, but if I did....you'd still roast me if I took a misstep

[Runscott]

Travis, I was using common sense, but I realize that law isn't all common sense - maybe one of the board lawyers will chime in here. My thinking was that if the buyer ended up in court with the card, that if SGC or PSA stated that it was not authentic, their opinion could be used as expert testimony that would trump the Canadian slab that it is currently in. That was the 'restitution' I was referring to, but maybe I used the wrong term, or maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, that would explain why Cobb and Edwards keep going with this - I thought it was just pure stupidity or that they were enjoying the attention.

Originally Posted by travrosty

the cobb edwards card aside, a judge is not going to order restitution because something didnt pass psa or sgc. we had that tested on the autograph side and the dealer who sold the autograph won when the autograph did not pass PSA and the buyer sued because of it.

PSA, SGC, JSA, Beckett are not gods whose decision is automatically final in a court of law. The judge might order restitution if it could be proven to be a reprint, no matter who has the proof, but not because it's PSA or SGC rejected. Proving a reprint is a much higher standard than declaring a reprint.

Originally Posted by Runscott
All pure bullshit.

Their model is unworkable if the goal is to sell the card and for it to stay sold. Anyone foolish enough to buy it would immediately turn around and submit it to PSA or SGC, at which time it would be declared a reprint, a lawsuit would ensue and the judge would order restitution...at the very least. For now they can enjoy their ill-gotten moment in the sun (thanks to people like MOK), but they can't sell the card.

[travrosty]

agreed, but the buyer of the autograph that failed psa also thought he was using common sense to demand his money back when psa provided a letter of rejection but no proof that the signature was bad. That seller failed in his quest to strong arm a dealer based simply on a psa letter of rejection and nothing else. he lost. All i wanted to say is psa and the others are not the be-all end-all final word.

They never prove anything, with autographs it is always weasel words for the rejection letter. undulation, misaligned baseline, improper shading, patching, oversize, undersize, etc. all words that mean nothing.

so taking PSA's word as gospel is ridiculous. We have corrected them on way more than one ocassion, try hundreds of times, and with cards i don't see why it would be any different. Again, this is not in regard to this specific cobb wagner card, but in general, the card is probably bogus, but psa or sgc saying it is bogus doesnt make it any more bogus just as cobb edwards saying it is authentic doesnt make it any more authentic.

Only proof can prove/disprove the card, and PSA doesn't provide or at least disclose any proof to back up their opinions. They hand down their opinion from mount olympus on high and expect you to just "trust" them. we have seen how many bogus autographs that trust has breached in the past, the laser prints, the stamps, the autopens, the secretarials. Someone show me how cards would be any different?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by travrosty

agreed, but the buyer of the autograph that failed psa also thought he was using common sense to demand his money back when psa provided a letter of rejection but no proof that the signature was bad.

I hope slabbed autographs are different - there are a lot more respected autograph authenticators, and while it shouldn't be the case, opinions are much more subjective. Grading might be subjective, but authenticity isn't, and PSA and SGC are recognized as experts in that area. The fly-by-night Canadian company probably wouldn't be (as much).