T206 Buyers Beware

[Abravefan11]

Several years ago several rebacked (or refronted) T206's hit the mark. The alterations were done well enough to pass the graders and some ended up in numbered holders. What tipped off the collecting community that these cards were frauds was the front/back combinations were impossible. One example was a Mathewson portrait with a red Hindu back. The Mathewson portrait was printed with the first group of subjects in the set and the red Hindu advertisement wasn't used until the 460 series, long after the Matty portrait was discontinued.

It's happening again and interestingly the two examples that have recently come to market are both Mathewson portraits as well.

The first sold on eBay on February 17th. The seller did state in the listing that the card was rebacked. This card was raw and had a Tolstoi back advertisement. This is an impossible front/back combination for this card. The Mathewson portrait was printed with group 1 subjects and the Tolstoi back was not introduced until the printing of group 2 subjects.

eBay Listing



The second recent example sold in the SCP auction that ended on February 29. Again a Mathewson portrait, this time with a Sovereign 460 back advertisement. This is another impossible front/back combo. What makes this card even more troubling is that it is in a TPG authentic holder. The auction listing didn't mention anything about the card being rebacked and stated the following about the authentic grade. "Portions of the black border of the card have been redrawn, resulting in the PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED rating."

SCP Listing

[CMIZ5290]

Tim, you are right, this is a situation that you can never let your guard down. Another situation is cards being swapped out of psa holders. While i do prefer psa graded t206s over sgc, psa holders are much easier to tamper with. I think a good rule of thumb is to try and buy the card and not the holder....

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Tim- great info for the collecting community.

Anyone in doubt about front and back combo's can also check your website T206Resource.com
to verify legitimate front/back combo's.

Good lookin' out Tim !!!!

Sincerely, Clayton

[obcmac]

I am just curious if anyone else thinks the fronts might be fake. The coloring and text looks a bit off to me. The one other impossible reback that I've seen also gave me the same impression...but I haven't seen any of them in person.

Mac

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by obcmac

I am just curious if anyone else thinks the fronts might be fake. The coloring and text looks a bit off to me. The one other impossible reback that I've seen also gave me the same impression...but I haven't seen any of them in person.

Mac

Mac - We've been talking about this and have the same feelings as you but haven't seen the cards in person either.

[atx840]

Makes me also wonder how easy it would be to flip a back upside down as those now go for 2k+

[Anthony S.]

When I saw that Mathewson Sovereign 460 in the SCP auction it immediately reminded me of a fake T206 Young (bare hand) that I came across late last year. In both cases the black rectangular line just inside the white border seemed just a little bit too thick and almost wavy in parts.

Anyway, I bought the T206 Young in an Ebay auction back in November. The seller mentioned that PSA had returned it as altered (the seller also enclosed the PSA rejection flip) and offered a money back guarantee. I assumed (hoped) that the alteration was merely trimming, which doesn't really bother me. When I received the card I immediately realized that something was "off" about it. The aforementioned black line was the first tip off, but the most telling feature was that when I ran my finger over the surface of the card, the black line was actually raised from the surface. T206s shouldn't have varying altitudes within the same card. In three decades of collecting T206s I'd never encountered that, so I knew it was fake. The EPDG back, however, was real. Major Shenanigans. Here's the card:

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

When I saw that Mathewson Sovereign 460 in the SCP auction it immediately reminded me of a fake T206 Young (bare hand) that I came across late last year. In both cases the black rectangular line just inside the white border seemed just a little bit too thick and almost wavy in parts.

Anyway, I bought the T206 Young in an Ebay auction back in November. The seller mentioned that PSA had returned it as altered (the seller also enclosed the PSA rejection flip) and offered a money back guarantee. I assumed (hoped) that the alteration was merely trimming, which doesn't really bother me. When I received the card I immediately realized that something was "off" about it. The aforementioned black line was the first tip off, but the most telling feature was that when I ran my finger over the surface of the card, the black line was actually raised from the surface. T206s shouldn't have varying altitudes within the same card. In three decades of collecting T206s I'd never encountered that, so I knew it was fake. The EPDG back, however, was real. Major Shenanigans. Here's the card:

Is it possible that they removed only the front image (black box and inward, only) from a real EPDG-backed card, scraped the image off, then glued a real Cy Young image into the hole and 'cleaned up', as opposed to re-backing the card?

[Jaybird]

maybe, but what about the caption?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

maybe, but what about the caption?

Doh! nevermind.

[iggyman]

Perhaps a silly observation but on the Sovereign Mathewson (the PSA graded card), the alignment of the name on the bottom is a little bit off. If you focus on his bottom shirt button, you will see what I mean. Here is the Soverign followed by the Tolstoi card:

mathtest2.JPG

mathtest5.JPG

If you look at the Tolstoi Mathewson, the "W" and "S" more or less align with the bottom button (that is how it should be). But on the Sovereign Mathewson, the "S" aligns with the button. Not sure if it means anything...........all the Mathewson's that I see align just like the raw Tolstoi (consistently with the "W" and "S" under the button).

mathcombo2.jpg



Lovely Day...

[Abravefan11]

Iggy - Not a silly observation but I think I can explain it. Look just above Matty's head on the Tolstoi backed example and you will see the brown color pass is off slightly. This would account for the caption also being shifted to the left.

[Jaybird]

did someone make a "Mathewson, NY" stamp? Cut the center out of the image, perhaps erase the name that was previously on the card, replace center image and stamp the name?

I dunno but just throwing it out there to see if it sticks.

This is one I had previously with it lining up on the E. Maybe there is a bit of variable here. Piedmont 150 back.

[iggyman]

Thanks Tim, I now see the faint shadow of brown on his head. Good observation and thanks for the lesson. One question, since I don't have a Mathewson in-hand at the moment. The team designation on his uniform (N.Y.) also appears to be brown??? If so, it did not shift to the left, not even a millimeter.

Lovely Day...

[Abravefan11]

Iggy - I was just overlaying the two images and like you said the N.Y. is in the same place even though the brown run is shifted. It appears the N.Y. was printed with one of the other color passes.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Is it possible that they removed only the front image (black box and inward, only) from a real EPDG-backed card, scraped the image off, then glued a real Cy Young image into the hole and 'cleaned up', as opposed to re-backing the card?

It is virtually impossible to "re-back" a T206 card which will get past a Grading Co. Conversely, you can "shave" the front off a T206 card, and laminate a reproduced front.
A professional paper restorer can accomplish this so that a Grading Co. will not discern that it is a FAKE. This is exactly what was done 12 years ago when we saw Cobb's,
Matty's, etc. with impossible F/B combos.

I posted a Net54 thread on this process 2 years ago titled...." Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ? "
Here is the Link......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=re-fronted

I was criticized back then by quite a number of Net54er's, when I claimed that the red Cobb with the red HINDU back was a Re-Fronted fake. Since then, some of my critics
have come around to agreeing with me regarding this particular red Cobb/red HINDU card.

Regarding these two latest fakes, I guess the scammers cannot find anymore tougher backs to "gimmick up"....such as common T206 DRUM's, Red HINDU's, and UZIT cards.

Consider this......the bad news was the LOST commons of DRUM's, red HINDU's, and UZIT cards that were RUINED in the process of these scammers attempts to Re-Front
STAR cards.

The good news (so far) is that these scammers are unfamiliar with the F/B combos of these T206's; therefore, we caught most of these fakes.


T-Rex TED

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I was criticized back then by quite a number of Net54er's, when I claimed that the red Cobb with the red HINDU back was a Re-Fronted fake. Since then, some of my critics
have come around to agreeing with me regarding this particular red Cobb/red HINDU card.

T-Rex TED

Ted, it's not always about us and them. If you could share your information without pointing out who is/was right and wrong, it might be easier to swallow.

"Critics, detractors, I was right, they've come around" etc. It doesn't make it easy to read and comes off like you have an agenda.

Just my .02 cents.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

It doesn't make it easy to read and comes off like you have an agenda.

Jason

The only "agenda" I had when I posted that thread 2 years ago....and, the only "agenda" I currently have is to caution Net54er's, so that some one isn't stuck
spending a lot of their hard-earned $$$$ buying a FAKE card.


Incidently Jason....thanks for referring Mike B to me, regarding the LENOX card.


TED Z

[obcmac]

I'm curious...did anybody ever figure out where these cards originated?

Also, did they only create impossible combos, or did they make other fakes too? I'm kind of shocked to hear that the reproduced fronts can slip by graders...but I guess I shouldn't be.

Mac

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It is virtually impossible to "re-back" a T206 card which will get past a Grading Co. Conversely, you can "shave" the front off a T206 card, and laminate a reproduced front.
A professional paper restorer can accomplish this so that a Grading Co. will not discern that it is a FAKE. This is exactly what was done 12 years ago when we saw Cobb's,
Matty's, etc. with impossible F/B combos.

.................

T-Rex TED

Thanks Ted - very good information.

[bundy462]

I stumbled across a WoJo portrait with a Carolina Brights back about a year or so ago. I believe it was one of these. I don't think that's a possible combination. I don't recall where it was or what the price was, it was when I was just getting into pre-war cards and before my net54 days. It was, of course, immaculate.

[atx840]

As suggested, could one not take a high grade common, cut out the player along the black border to hide the switch, replace it with a clean authentic Mathewson portrait from a card with border issues, remove the name and stamp Mathewson on it?

And then there is this controversial card

[Abravefan11]

Chris - I'm sure anything is possible but cutting the image out of the border seems unlikely to me. The most plausible to me is that the entire front was removed and replaced. A board member once showed an example of a T206 with a Piedmont back that he had removed the front and replaced with a T205 front. In this case it appears the fronts being added to the real backs are fake. Again I haven't held one in my hand, but I would like to.

The Cobb red Hindu is great fodder for debate but I have yet to speak with anyone that can show me evidence that the card isn't good. I have heard the stories and rumors and I have learned some of them simply are not true. The card might not be good but at this point I haven't seen any reason to say it isn't.

[iggyman]

Perhaps I'm grasping at straws but for the better part of 30 minutes, I have been searching for T206 Mathewson portrait cards online. I've looked at high grade examples, low grade beaters, Sovereign backs, Piedmont backs, Sweet Caporal backs, one Hindu back, trimmed ones, VCP ones, major auctions ones, and a few really ugly ones. Yet, for the life of me I cannot find one example where the "S" on his name aligns underneath the lower button.

If possible, can Net54ers who have a T206 Mathewson portrait do me a favor and check to see if you have one with the name and button aligned in this manner:

mathtest2.JPG

Tim, no disrespect but I believe your analysis concerning the shifting to the left of the bottom text is incorrect. First of all, after looking at my T206 Mathewson portrait under a loupe, I'm convinced that the "N." and "Y." on his uniform are the same brown color as the bottom text. Thus, if one shifts the other should shift as well. If we find a real one that has shifted it would hopefully prove this theory. Secondly, you mentioned the brown by Mathewson head in the "Tolstoi" backed example is slightly off. That might be true, but the one in question is the SOVEREIGN Mathewson. That is the one that has shifted to the left.

Lovely Day...

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Iggy - Not a silly observation but I think I can explain it. Look just above Matty's head on the Tolstoi backed example and you will see the brown color pass is off slightly. This would account for the caption also being shifted to the left.

[Runscott]

Iggy - Tim's correct about this. I've seen plenty of examples where I had two identical cards, but the name at the bottom was aligned differently (to the left or right). It's true that there will be a 'normal' alignment, but finding deviations isn't a big deal.

[atx840]

Aligned to the left image border you can see the PB backed (2nd from the top) Hofman is shifted to the left.

[alanu]

After watching a paper restorer restore a thrashed poster on tv, I can believe almost anything can be done with these cards, given to the right person.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Tim, no disrespect but I believe your analysis concerning the shifting to the left of the bottom text is incorrect.

Iggy - Never any disrespect and thank you for continuing to look at it. If the caption was printed with the brown color pass it should be off like the rest of the brown in the image. But after looking at it more closely you're right and I believe the captions on the two bad cards are fake and not part of subject image that was used.

[tedzan]

The brown ink captions of the white-bordered T-cards must of been a separate stage in the printing process (1909-1912). In the post 1912 T-card era,
American Litho. switched to printing the captions with blue ink.

My point here is that you cannot depend on a precise alignment of the caption lettering with respect to the image to indicate that a card is a "repro" (or not).

And, then there are those T206's without a caption....such as my no-caption T206 Ryan.





TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The brown ink captions of the white-bordered T-cards must of been a separate stage in the printing process (1909-1912).

TED Z

Evidence points to the captions for the T206's being printed during the same brown color pass as the image. If the brown color pass is off registration in the image, the caption is off as well.

[z28jd]

I have Carrigan's where you can watch the name move, regular alignment, followed by the big letters just barely touching the board to all the letters slightly into the border. You can see the brown in his glove, especially where it meets the picture of the buttocks(I assume its the back of his hand), moves up as the name moves up.

Edited to add that these are all Polar Bear backs, just an interesting ICYDK(FYI that means in case you didn't know)

[iggyman]

Originally Posted by tedzan

My point here is that you cannot depend on a precise alignment of the caption lettering with respect to the image to indicate that a card is a "repro" (or not).

Ted, I'm not arguing that the brown lettering does not shift in one direction or the other. What I'm trying to say (which others have said far better then me), is that if the brown lettering on the bottom shifts, then anything else with brown lettering in the image should also shift.

The Sovereign Mathewson does not seem to follow this rule.

Lovely Day...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Iggy - Never any disrespect and thank you for continuing to look at it. If the caption was printed with the brown color pass it should be off like the rest of the brown in the image. But after looking at it more closely you're right and I believe the captions on the two bad cards are fake and not part of subject image that was used.

What are your thoughts on how the front was reconstructed? I can see them scraping off the original image and adding a new one, as described in my previous post, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone could scrape off the original caption and print a new one, AND get it past the graders.

Perhaps I give the graders too much credit.

Thoughts?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Ted, I'm not arguing that the brown lettering does not shift in one direction or the other. What I'm trying to say (which others have said far better then me), is that if the brown lettering on the bottom shifts, then anything else with brown lettering in the image should also shift.

The Sovereign Mathewson does not seem to follow this rule.

Lovely Day...

Iggy

I would venture to say that all 524 images of the T206 set have Brown ink on them. Yet, like my Ryan card, some were printed without their Brown caption.

Tim's illustration, not withstanding, there must of have been situations where the printing of the image and the printing of the caption were separate stages.
Otherwise, how would "No-Caption" T206's exist ?

I'm not certain, though, that this answers you question ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

What are your thoughts on how the front was reconstructed? I can see them scraping off the original image and adding a new one, as described in my previous post, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone could scrape off the original caption and print a new one, AND get it past the graders.

Perhaps I give the graders too much credit.

Thoughts?

Check-out the following scans....evident in the lower part of the Donlin card is the start of image disintegration (that is typical of white-bordered cards that have been
affected by adverse conditions).

The Piedmont 350 card (center) was a T206 Peaches Graham. It had extensive image disintegration. I carefully scraped the ink flakes off it, resulting in a "Blank Front"
T206 (seen in the right scan).

This is the start of the re-fronted process of a T206. Given the technology that exists nowadays, the entire front image of a T206 is faithfully reproduced to the extent that it will fool the Grader. A professional paper restorer will then laminate this repro front onto a real "frontless" T206. The paper restorer will repeat this process until he
creates a "fake" T206 that it is virtually un-discernable from a real one.







TED Z

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Iggy

I would venture to say that all 524 images of the T206 set have Brown ink on them. Yet, like my Ryan card, some were printed without their Brown caption.

Tim's illustration, not withstanding, there must of have been situations where the printing of the image and the printing of the caption were separate stages.
Otherwise, how would "No-Caption" T206's exist ?

I'm not certain, though, that this answers you question ?


TED Z

Ted, I'll be the once to say this since you and I get along well and you'll know I'm not being malicious: it looks like the brown might be 'pulled down' a little on your card (the dark goes lower on his hairline than a typical Ryan card); that, and the fact that most of the area where the caption would have been printed is cut off, leads me to think that yours originally had a caption.

[tedzan]

Scott

I originally thought the same. However, two factors have convinced me that this Ryan card is a No-Caption.

The card is over-sized (top-to-bottom)

And, I have had several others who have seen it, and agree it's ca[tion is missing.

Hey guy, if you are at the National in Baltimore this summer, you are welcome to check it out.


TED Z

[iggyman]

Ted,

With your years of handling thousands of T206 cards, can you recall ever seeing the caption missing and a full bottom border? I'll defer to your expertise on the Ryan card, but as Scott mentioned, it is a mighty small bottom border. I would love to see it in-hand, perhaps one day.

In my mind, the next step is to look for a T206 card with the bottom brown name shifted in one direction but the brown in the image not shifted. Does a card like that exist???

Lovely Day...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Scott

I originally thought the same. However, two factors have convinced me that this Ryan card is a No-Caption.

The card is over-sized (top-to-bottom)

And, I have had several others who have seen it, and agree it's ca[tion is missing.

Hey guy, if you are at the National in Baltimore this summer, you are welcome to check it out.


TED Z

Sounds good - I have every intention of being there. I'll pick up a Ryan with good registration and bring my magnifier.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Scott

I originally thought the same. However, two factors have convinced me that this Ryan card is a No-Caption.

The card is over-sized (top-to-bottom)

And, I have had several others who have seen it, and agree it's ca[tion is missing.

TED Z

The card being oversized isn't proof of a no name strike. It is more likely that the card was in the top row of the sheet. It then could have been miscut yielding a oversized card with large top border and small bottom border. Iggy's side by side illustrates that the name caption could have been below the cut.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Check-out the following scans....evident in the lower part of the Donlin card is the start of image disintegration (that is typical of white-bordered cards that have been
affected by adverse conditions).

The Piedmont 350 card (center) was a T206 Peaches Graham. It had extensive image disintegration. I carefully scraped the ink flakes off it, resulting in a "Blank Front"
T206 (seen in the right scan).

This is the start of the re-fronted process of a T206. Given the technology that exists nowadays, the entire front image of a T206 is faithfully reproduced to the extent that it will fool the Grader. A professional paper restorer will then laminate this repro front onto a real "frontless" T206. The paper restorer will repeat this process until he
creates a "fake" T206 that it is virtually un-discernable from a real one.

TED Z

Ted, Tim stated that he thinks the Matty caption was added by the forger. Adding a caption that could get past a grading company would require:

1. re-creating the white background over the cardboard
2. stamping the caption with the same font used in real T206's
3. stamping the caption with the same similar ink used in real T206's
4. stamping the caption using the same process used in real T206's

I don't see how the above could be done, which is why I've asked for Tim's thoughts. Not saying it CAN'T be done, just wondering how.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Lee

[steve B]

Here's a Barry with nearly no caption. A decent sized lower border, and the caption just barely visible at the lower edge. The brown is shifted down on this one.


But the same seller had a Schmidt that had a full lower border and no caption. I was sure I'd saved the scan, but haven't found it yet.

re-creating the white background isn't necessary if the original front is simply erased.

Using the same font isn't hard.

using the same ink isn't needed, merely one close to the same color

Using the same method also isn't all that hard. And not entirely required.

duplicating a small section of text on one color is fairly simple. Duplicating the entire image would be a challenge, but may be possible.

As a related question, maybe one that should get its own thread- Where are the wrongbacks? Nearly every other sort of T206 scrap or error has turned up, I would think that at some point a leftover sheet of say 150 series would have been used as makeready sheets or marker sheets for a later series or for a brand that didn't use that image. So there should be at least a handful of 150 only cards with 350 or even 460 backs. (Not saying that these are wrongbacks just that some should exist somewhere. And I'd be more comfortable seeing a common.)

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

re-creating the white background isn't necessary if the original front is simply erased.

Using the same font isn't hard.

using the same ink isn't needed, merely one close to the same color

Using the same method also isn't all that hard. And not entirely required.

duplicating a small section of text on one color is fairly simple. Duplicating the entire image would be a challenge, but may be possible.


Steve B

Steve, you're saying it's all easy, but not saying answering 'how'. If the font can be 'simply erased', such that it could FOOL THE GRADER, we'd have so many error cards encapsulated that they wouldn't be worth anything.

Same thing is true if it's really that easy to find ink that's close to the same color and a similar font and method - can you imagine how many Slow Joe Doyles we'd have with Nat'l?

I'm still not seeing this.

[tedzan]

Let's get back on the main track here......and, that's Tim's original subject of these two fake T206's, that were good enough to fool the Grading Co's.

We went thru a rash of these fake T206's approx. 12 years ago (and in few cases, we still are). So, here goes an important question for you all to consider......

Is the quality increasing of these professionally altered T206's......or, is the quality of the professional grading services decreasing ?

Or, perhaps a combination of both of these factors ? ?


T-Rex TED