Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[tedzan]

............a long time passing............gone to dust bins, everyone............Oh, when will they ever return ?


We have found regular production uncut sheets of E-cards, OBAK's, GOUDEY's, PLAY BALL's, LEAF's, BOWMAN's and TOPPS cards. However, no regular production T206 sheets
have ever been found. This is very mystifying, since we know that Millions of T206's were printed.

Research of the American Lithographic Co. (ALC), that printed most of the Tobacco cards (circa 1909 -1919), reveals that they printed on 19" wide x 33" long cardboard sheets.
Indeed, uncut sheets have been found with American Tobacco (ATC) related items (cigarette packs, etc.) that are 19" x 33". This sheet size can comprise of as many as 144
T206 size cards printed in a 12 x 12 array. ALC printed the front images on these sheets using a 6-color process. The backs of these pre-printed sheets were blank. They were
hung up to allow the ink to dry and then they were stockpiled.

The various Tobacco Factory's in the ATC system would order cards from ALC to insert into their cigarette packs. ALC would print the specific advertising brand and its Factory
number on the backs of the pre-printed sheets. The significance of the exact Factory # was due to Federal law. Circa 1903, a Federal Tax law was established identifying every
tobacco product's Factory. It also required that any associated advertising premium(s) were labelled with the exact Factory #. Then, 1000's of T206's would be shipped from ALC
in NYC to Richmond, VA (Factory #25), Durham, NC (Factory #42), Rochester, NY (Factory #649), Middletown, OH (Factory #6), etc.....or stay in New York City (Factory #30).

Here is a scan of the 12 subjects that were the start of the T206 press runs in the Spring/Summer of 1909. These cards were initially printed with the PIEDMONT and SWEET
CAPORAL brands. The Wagner card was discontinued due to his claim "of not endorsing cigarette smoking". Connie Mack's biography tells us that Connie Mack and Eddie Plank
were strongly "anti-tobacco" and did not want their picture associated with tobacco cards. *


Note....cards are not necessarily in the correct order as they were printed


\................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......... approx. 18 inches .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........../



150-Only Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
12 subjects......All 12 of these cards were most likely "multi-printed" on the first sheet. My conjecture is a format that was 12 cards across a row by "n" number of rows down.
Resulting in a vertically repeated array of each card.

DITTO for SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 25 & 30)


150/350 Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
144 subjects......possibly 3 x 48-card sheets

SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30)
141 subjects......possibly 3 x 48-card sheets (3 subjects were double-printed)

SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30 overprinted with Factory 649
34 subjects......36-card sheet (Powers and a 2nd subject were double-printed)


Southern Leaguer Series
Brown HINDU back.....34 subjects.....36-card sheet (two subjects were double-printed)

OLD MILL or PIEDMONT 350 backs......48 subjects....48-card sheet.


"350/460" Series
SOVEREIGN......66 subjects......possibly a 72-card sheet (surveys indicate that the 6 Super-Prints were most likely double-printed)


460-Only Series
PIEDMONT (Factory 25) or SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30)......46 subjects......48-card sheet (Duffy & Ford were double-printed)



Furthermore, the 48 - Major League subjects in the 1910 Coupon set were derived from the pre-printed sheet in the 350 series of the T206 set that included the 6 Super-Prints.
The backs of this 48-card sheet were printed with the "COUPON" brand. **

And, a complete T215 set consists of 96 cards. It was issued in two series. The 1st series of 48 cards were printed in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 cards were printed in 1912.


The breakdown of the sheets with the tougher T206 backs is still a work in progress.


NOTES

* A follow-up post here will provide more information regarding the T206 Eddie Plank and the card of his battery-mate, Mike "Doc" Powers.

** The1910 COUPON cards were printed on sheets of thinner cardboard stock than the regular T206 cards. Apparently, this was done because these cards were not intended
to serve as "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. This "COUPON" brand was a new offering by ATC; and, the cigarettes were packaged in boxes, instead of standard cigarette packs.


FINALLY....The Gretzky T206 PIEDMONT Wagner and the Charlie Conlon PIEDMONT Plank originated from Long Island, NY
I came across some information recently that may explain why this was......and, may also explain why a number of Wagner cards have originated from Long Island.

Stay tuned !


TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

T206 Eddie Plank

It's been 2-3 years since I posted my "Plank theory" thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t+order&page=6

I haven't been able to discover any new evidence to support my contention that the T206 Plank was yanked due to a conflict with the American Caramel Co.

But, I have discovered that Plank was very much anti-tobacco in any form. And so was his Mgr., Connie Mack. Plank was a low-keyed guy and most likely did
not receive the "fanfare" that Wagner got for having their cards pulled from circulation. Plank's complaint was most likely resolved by a Cease & Desist Order
to ATC.
If so, then a mystery surrounds this situation, since ALC issued Plank again when they printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 cards. But not too many,
as they had to yank Plank cards a 2nd time.


T206 Mike "Doc" Powers

The Powers card has been traditionally classified as a "150-Only" subject. I question this, since this card is found with a SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649
(overprint) back. This tells us that Powers was designed to be a 150/350 subject. Unfortunately, Mike Powers died from complications of an injury that he suf-
fered at Shibe Park on Opening Day of the 1909 season. This was especially tragic for Eddie Plank since Powers had been his preferred catcher for many years.

Needless to say, ALC did not print any 350 series card of Powers. However, two T206 surveys (18,000+ cards) indicate that Powers' PIEDMONT 150 card and
the SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649 (overprint) card were both Double-Printed on their respective sheets.


TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TEDE

[Ronnie73]

Very intresting research and theorys. I am still hopefull that an uncut sheet will turn up one day.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Thanks for all that valuable information Ted. The question remains....where are the uncut sheets. Almost as intrigueing are the uncovered hoards and collections yet unseen that might contain some answers. You sure are one if not the top gun with 206s . In my meager hunt i will keep you informed of any new info i might uncover.
Many years ago I think i remember Mr. Frank Nagy having uncut strips or panels of them, but i could be wrong. I was dazzled at the time of his page after page after page of 52T mantles. aloha dave

[ScottFandango]

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

Thanks Scott....I appreciate your kind words.

Pardon me for correcting your number; but, there are only 8 known Joe Doyle error cards. And, as you said....this card is indeed the toughest in the T206 set.
Will it ever sell for more than an equivalently graded Wagner. I don't think so. The Wagner card has been "hyped" up for too many years and will stay on top.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Nice thread T-Rex.....Doyle will always be tougher but no way does he get to Wagner's cult status and value, imho...

[steve B]

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Lesser points about the technical end of things.

I can't find any way to agree with the sheets being hung up to dry. In a proofing dept yes, but not in production. There just isn't the time. A rough guess based on the possible 370 million Scott Reader proposed as a high production number, 144 cards to a sheet and 5 seconds a sheet to do the hanging equals roughly 89 weeks of labor per color. The way the presses stack sheets in the outfeed area provides a bit of air between sheets and that's all that is required.

The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B

[mkdltn]

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Steve B

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[Runscott]

edited: you've got your hands full. I'll send you an email

[atx840]

Not enough Plank in here. Notice that the missing color and dirty handcut have similar printing marks on the sides of the "Cigarette" line.

[tedzan]

If you don't want to accept my Wagner / Plank connection....then check-out your own words on this subject in Post #2 in this thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...nlon%27s+plank

" The nicest of the bunch is the sheet mate to the famous T206 Wagner PSA 8 (also P150) and was sold by REA for 100k used belong to Charlie Conlon sold to him by none other than Bill Mastro, and is IMO the nicest Plank in the world. "

I guess most would say that you and I are on the same page ! !


T-Rex TED

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I guess most would say that you and I are on the same page ! !T-Rex TED

Ted I beg to differ I think most folks who read the above would say we are far from on the same page.

Ted just because I feel that the Plank that was most likely cut from the same sheet as the McNall Wagner is the nicest Plank in the hobby (still do) doesn't mean I agree with you that Plank and Wagner were printed in the first 150 subjects run or at the same time. As I well pointed out why I find flaws in your statements.

I have to ask how does my view of that Plank even play into anything here? Did you even read my post? As I said above which you failed to read…see below…

“Also the fact that the Wagner PSA 8 was supposedly cut from a strip of cards with Plank is no real evidence either. We have no real idea other than stories on this, but from what I have heard it seems it was more of strip vs. a full sheet. I’m not sure how we can draw conclusions on sheet configurations from these hear say stories of the fateful night of trimming in a backroom.”

I think I have asked many good questions above which you seem to want to ignore as usual, most likely because they are in stark contrast with you theory and statements about T206.

So I will ask a again…

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

[steve B]

That mark is from a scratch on the plate or stone. One of those marks that will be found only on one position on the sheet.

The one shown has probably been corrected since it ends abruptly at the right edge of the printed area. It likely extended further, and was reapired in the border area with a limestone crayon used for fixing that sort of problem.

What would be interesting to see would be a different card withthe same mark, or either a different card or Plank with the uncorrected scratch.

Steve B

Originally Posted by atx840

Not enough Plank in here. Notice that the missing color and dirty handcut have similar printing marks on the sides of the "Cigarette" line.

[Runscott]

Ted, Tim,

I know that your group of 12 (or 11 or 13) differs slightly, but regardless...

Could someone please explain the significance of the '150 only' group of 12 (or 13 or 11)? And why do you think sheets were printed containing ONLY those cards? At the time that the first sheets were printed, I don't think ATC knew which cards would NOT be included in the '350' group.

I'm sure this information is presented somewhere, but it eludes me.

Originally Posted by tedzan

150-Only Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
12 subjects......All 12 of these cards were most likely "multi-printed" on the first sheet. My conjecture is a format that was 12 cards across a row by "n" number of rows down.
Resulting in a vertically repeated array of each card.

DITTO for SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 25 & 30)

TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TED

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Could someone please explain the significance of the '150 only' group of 12 (or 13 or 11)? And why do you think sheets were printed containing ONLY those cards? At the time that the first sheets were printed, I don't think ATC knew which cards would NOT be included in the '350' group.

I'm sure this information is presented somewhere, but it eludes me.

Scott I know you want proof so I'll do the best I can.

ATC knew they were printing more than one series from the beginning. The first Sporting Life ad says "First Series-150 Subjects." This shows ATC intending on there being at least two series. You can't have a first without a second.

When the first series began being printed that included the Sovereign 150 backs it totaled exactly 150 subjects. When the second print group was first printed it totaled exactly 200 subjects. That's a grand total of 350.

Research shows that the 150 subjects were chosen in early 1909 to be included in the set. Along with documentation like the Ball letter, team designations show this.

If you also carefully study the subjects from print group 2 you will find they were chosen at the same time. Only a few major league subjects that changed teams after the start of the 1909 season had their team designations updated prior to the start of the print group 2 production in 1910.

There are 13 subjects that are referred to as 150 Only. All of these subjects were part of print group 1.

The Magie/Magee correction was not considered a new subject by ATC. They simply viewed it as a correction of an existing subject.

The same goes for the George Brown team change. ATC did not view team changes like this, Dahlen, Elberfeld and others as a new subject. Just an update to an existing subject. There is proof of this in the numbers. If you would like for me to go into it further I will.

The only difference in the remaining 10 that can be found only with 150 Subjects backs is that they were discontinued earlier than the rest of the group. This happened prior to the print group 1 subjects being printed with 350 Subjects backs. I have not seen any evidence that they were printed any differently than the other 140 original 150 Subjects throughout the 150 Series.