Same SGC 7 Mantle Sold 4 times in 15 months

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It could be trimmed, but I wouldn't say necessarily. The Mays in particular has extremely narrow borders to begin with in comparison to the rest of the set.

that's the reason for my follow up post. I went and looked at some examples and noticed the thinner than normal borders even on 1's and 2's

[parkplace33]

I don’t believe those 53 Mays prices for a second. And I am curious what an 8 would sell for now (if one comes out).

[Exhibitman]

It is absolutely fraud to knowingly report a fake sale and then tout it in an effort to flip the card. Textbook fraudulent concealment of a material fact.

As for consignors faking sales, I guess it could happen but does anyone know it happened?

[Republicaninmass]

Jesus christ, some of the largest amount of fruads are perpetrated by church patrons ON their own church people.. ask any investigator. As an aside, anytime an ebay auction has "god bless" it usually a scam!


Talk about fishing for reasons

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'd be curious to see the numbers on a 14CJ Cobb leading up to the ones coming to market in LOTG, Heritage, and I think REA.

Phil, here are VCP results for the 1914 CJ Cobb in a PSA 4. Aside from the last sale, it has been a steady increase over time (I have also included a pick of the price graph). The very pretty PSA 4 example in LOTG is currently at $36k with BP with 10 days to go.

Some things to note about these results: (1) they are ALL auctions, which I personally view as more legit/reliable that BIN, (2) you can’t see from the picture, but other than the last sale and a 2017 sale (both Probstein - EBay), every single sale from auction houses, which I feel are more legit/reliable than Ebay, and (3) the picture shows 11 sales over a 13 year period - less than 1/year and only twice was the same card sold within 2 years of its last sale (the final Probstein sale is one of them).

Based on all this, I view these comps as legit and I see a healthy and steady trend of increased value. This is the exact type of card I like to collect/invest in - not too common, very desirable (player, issue, image), and steady and verifiable history of value increase. I expect the LOTG Cobb will finish above the 2022 comp.

Regarding that 2022 comp and the fact that it sold for $9k less than the prior sale - it’s the same exact card that was sold in REA for $58k a year before. I think REA is a better venue to sell this card, it was just sold, and the market may have topped from its 2021 high when sold by REA. The fact that it sold for less, in an eBay auction, also indicates to me that the Probstein auction was legit and without shilling

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Well here is another one by our PWCC….

1953 Topps Willie Mays SGC 8 sale reported by vcp $186,000 4/13

Now Same Card 2 weeks ago less than 6 months apart same card sells in PWCC for $99,000 so you tell me ??? Did the card drop $87,000 in less then six months or Was the first sale Puff and Fluff .

How long before you see this back up for sale this time it could be punted to another major or what the hell they may try it again…

Thoughts ��

I don’t believe either of these sales nor many of these 6 figure sales. There are so much shenanigans going on with this kind of things . You can’t keep up with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Phil, here are VCP results for the 1914 CJ Cobb in a PSA 4. Aside from the last sale, it has been a steady increase over time (I have also included a pick of the price graph). The very pretty PSA 4 example in LOTG is currently at $36k with BP with 10 days to go.

Some things to note about these results: (1) they are ALL auctions, which I personally view as more legit/reliable that BIN, (2) you can’t see from the picture, but other than the last sale and a 2017 sale (both Probstein - EBay), every single sale from auction houses, which I feel are more legit/reliable than Ebay, and (3) the picture shows 11 sales over a 13 year period - less than 1/year and only twice was the same card sold within 2 years of its last sale (the final Probstein sale is one of them).

Based on all this, I view these comps as legit and I see a healthy and steady trend of increased value. This is the exact type of card I like to collect/invest in - not too common, very desirable (player, issue, image), and steady and verifiable history of value increase. I expect the LOTG Cobb will finish above the 2022 comp.

Regarding that 2022 comp and the fact that it sold for $9k less than the prior sale - it’s the same exact card that was sold in REA for $58k a year before. I think REA is a better venue to sell this card, it was just sold, and the market may have topped from its 2021 high when sold by REA. The fact that it sold for less, in an eBay auction, also indicates to me that the Probstein auction was legit and without shilling

Thanks for the breakdown Ryan, I also see this card as a health of the hobby indicator with all the right combinations. Fun to own and a good investment at the same time.
I think the LOTG example has a chance to beat the 2021 REA comp.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Jesus christ, some of the largest amount of fruads are perpetrated by church patrons ON their own church people.. ask any investigator. As an aside, anytime an ebay auction has "god bless" it usually a scam!


Talk about fishing for reasons

You obviously don't know any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. You can't lump them in with your average church goer.

But yes, in general, I otherwise agree with you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think any one faith has a higher propensity to virtue, or to lack thereof. Human nature is what it is, independent of specific faiths, IMO.

https://www.grunge.com/1005171/notor...mon-murderers/

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You obviously don't know any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. You can't lump them in with your average church goer.

But yes, in general, I otherwise agree with you.

LOL, I know several and they are no better or worse than anyone else.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You obviously don't know any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. You can't lump them in with your average church goer.

But yes, in general, I otherwise agree with you.

Appreciate the vote of confidence from Travis for my fellow believers. We certainly strive for perfection, and hold ourselves to high standards.

But I would be more focused on your personal experiences with that fellow rather than their faith. From what you mentioned earlier, he has proven himself to be a man of integrity, even when the opportunity arose to take advantage of a situation.

As others have mentioned, as a member of that faith, we are as mortal and fallible as most, with our fair share of failure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

FWIW, PWCC was at the epicenter of the blatant, shameless market manipulation in 2016 or thereabouts. It wasn't just them, to be clear.

[Kidnapped18]

The 12 '14 CJ Cobb PSA 4s broken down further:

#04792514 sold for
$11,042.00 SCP 08/11/13
$13,568.38 Goodwin 09/26/14
No documented sale since then

#09171488 sold for
$31,200.00 REA 12/08/19
$42,000.00 REA 08/16/20
Currently in a collector's Registry

#11178344 sold for
$7,467.00 Mile High 05/19/11
No documented sale since then

#11775525 Current LOTG Cobb
No documented sales

#19507408 sold for
$25,223.00 eBay/Probstein 05/21/17

#27617910
No documented sales

#30920736
No documented sales

#30920737 sold for
$58,800.00 REA 07/26/21
$49,768.00 eBay/Probstein 11/01/22

#40404026 sold for
$5,936.00 Legendary 02/23/05
$36,000.00 REA 10/28/18

#45032928 sold for
$53,270.00 Collect 11/14/19
$50,400.00 Goldin 09/21/20

#50077795 sold for
$17,925.00 Heritage 11/05/14
No documented sale since then
Currently in a collector's Registry

Have not located the 12th PSA 4 Cobb yet

I believe I had $55,000 as the over/under on the November LOTG Cobb in a separate thread/post

[Peter_Spaeth]

#04792514 sold for
$11,042.00 SCP 08/11/13
$13,568.38 Goodwin 09/26/14
No documented sale since then

I acquired this in a trade at essentially the same value. It hasn't gone anywhere.

[Casey2296]

Nice Cobby Peter!.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://mavin.io/item/1952-Topps-Mic...antle%20%23311

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also, someone tells me the SGC cert is not active?

[Rhotchkiss]

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Betsy wouldn't lie.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I know several and they are no better or worse than anyone else.

Sorry, I'm an atheist, but I'm calling BS on you "knowing several" if you honestly believe that.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

FWIW, PWCC was at the epicenter of the blatant, shameless market manipulation in 2016 or thereabouts. It wasn't just them, to be clear.

What sort of market manipulations took place in ~2016?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Sorry, I'm an atheist, but I'm calling BS on you "knowing several" if you honestly believe that.

My step father was a Mormon and I attended sunday school and church services at a Morman church. So I am calling BS on you.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Betsy wouldn't lie.

Let's be clear about our claims here. You guys are accusing PWCC (and Betsy and Brent specifically) of faking these sales. Without evidence, I should add.

However, when you go to PWCC's sales history page, neither the $550k sale nor the $950k sale are listed. If the sales were real, and paid for, they would be listed.

So where do these "comps" come from? According to VCP, the $550k sale was an eBay sale where the seller was "pwcc_vault". The same is true of this "Mavin" sale. It says it was an eBay sale from the seller "pwcc_vault". Yet, PWCC doesn't list either of these sales.

The only auction house I am aware of that reports items as "sold" even if they don't get paid for is eBay. Which is where both of these "sales" (which apparently were not paid for according to PWCC's own records) occurred.

So your beef here is with eBay, yet it's being misdirected toward PWCC, despite not being warranted.

Someone faked the sales on eBay (all that is required is for some random account with zero feedback to "make an offer" or click on "buy it now" and then never pay). This is entirely on the consigner and/or the shill bidder. Not on PWCC.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Peter:

Can you or someone else please elaborate on the hobby fraud that was going on around 2016, I have heard rumblings about the same in the past. There was a period where I was out of touch with the hobby for a few years, including that time period.

Thanks!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

What sort of market manipulations took place in ~2016?

Prices on cards like high end Rose Ryan and Koufaxes doubling or tripling within weeks. Shill bidding galore on ebay. PWCC promising bidding reform but blatantly ignoring its own promises. People not paying auction houses after setting record prices. There were lengthy discussions of all the gory details. Even Brent essentially admitted there was a group of guys trying to "push" the market. Look for threads by or about Courtney DeLorme (now deceased).

[Rhotchkiss]

I have not accused Brett or Betsy of anything. What I have done is posted a series of Mantle SGC 7 alleged sales of the same card, including what Peter found, 4 of which sales are connected in some fashion to PWCC - either their auctions or their vault. Not REA, not Goldin, not any other house- rather PWCC, an outfit that has been involved (fact and documented) in numerous sketchy activities, got booted from eBay, and recently went belly up (from the top of the world). If the conclusion people are drawing is that PWCC or their old ownership was somehow connected with these “sales”, it’s tough to argue that. I have no direct proof. But where there is smoke….

Regardless, I don’t give a shit about PWCC or anyone there. That place imploded and I haven’t bought from them in years. They are history. Instead, I noticed the same mantle being sold 4 times in 2 years, each time for less, and I pointed that out and asked for theories. My theory is at least 1 of them (now 2) are fake sales intended to create inflated comps. I don’t know if it was PWCC, eBay, Brett/Betsy, other people, or all the above. But I do feel they were fake, nefarious, and PWCC is connected to 4 of the “sales”. At the least, PWCC created a platform that provided opportunity for fake sales.

Edited - I just went back and looked at my earlier posts, and I concede my second post could imply that PWCC directly faked sales. I did not mean that, although I certainly believe they were at least passively connected to the fake sales/at least complicit - I think 2 sales were fake and the both happened on PWCC’s platform. Here is what I think - PWCC extended credit to people, who pledged cards as collateral. PWCC borrowed (either as loan or equity) the funds it lent to others. Like all creditors, I expect PWCC expected to get paid back, but end borrowers likely started defaulting on their loans once the bubble burst. PWCC was owed money from people who lost their asses and owned greatly devalued cards, and PWCC’s immediate collateral was cards, held at PWCC, which likely also had been devalued. The cards were how PWCC would get paid back and, ultimately, how PWCC would pay back its creditor(s). Fake sales on PWCC’s platform almost certainly happened, and I believe the Mantle is an example of that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I have not accused Brett or Betsy of anything. What I have done is posted a series of Mantle SGC 7 alleged sales of the same card, including what Peter found, 4 of which sales are connected in some fashion to PWCC - either their auctions or their vault. Not REA, not Goldin, not any other house- rather PWCC, an outfit that has been involved (fact and documented) in numerous sketchy activities, got booted from eBay, and recently went belly up (from the top of the world). If the conclusion people are drawing is that PWCC or their old ownership was somehow connected with these “sales”, it’s tough to argue that. I have no direct proof. But where there is smoke….

Regardless, I don’t give a shit about PWCC or anyone there. That place imploded and I haven’t bought from them in years. They are history. Instead, I noticed the same mantle being sold 4 times in 2 years, each time for less, and I pointed that out and asked for theories. My theory is at least 2 of them (now 3) are fake sales intended to create inflated comps. I don’t know if it was PWCC, eBay, Brett/Betsy, other people, or all the above. But I do feel they were fake, nefarious, and PWCC is connected to 4 of the “sales”. At the least, PWCC created a platform that provided opportunity for fake sales.

Let us also not forget they were the target of a federal investigation and initially were cooperating meaning they were going to plead guilty. Let us also not forget they sold Moser's cards for well over a decade. As for me, I was not accusing them specifically with respect to the 900K sale, rather my remark about Betsy was sarcasm about one of Travis' earlier posts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Sorry, I'm an atheist, but I'm calling BS on you "knowing several" if you honestly believe that.

How could you possibly know who Ben knows? Odd post.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks for the clarification, Peter. I’m very sorry that I missed out on that knowledge from back in the day. Knowing that would have surely raised my suspicion when the same type of thing started happening in late 2020/early 2021 and I would hope to have been wise enough not to buy into all of the market hype that was going on. Unfortunately, that was not the case and I got burned about as bad as an individual possibly could, given the relatively small stake that I had in the game. Truly, a potential life ruining event for me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Thanks for the clarification, Peter. I’m very sorry that I missed out on that knowledge from back in the day. Knowing that would have surely raised my suspicion when the same type of thing started happening in late 2020/early 2021 and I would hope to have been wise enough not to buy into all of the market hype that was going on. Unfortunately, that was not the case and I got burned about as bad as an individual possibly could, given the relatively small stake that I had in the game.

Similar MO I think, fake sales and FOMO, although in 2020 and 2021 more of a role for the Gary Vees of the world I think.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Edited - I just went back and looked at my earlier posts, and I concede my second post could imply that PWCC directly faked sales. I did not mean that, although I certainly believe they were at least passively connected to the fake sales/at least complicit - I think 2 sales were fake and the both happened on PWCC’s platform. Here is what I think - PWCC extended credit to people, who pledged cards as collateral. PWCC borrowed (either as loan or equity) the funds it lent to others. Like all creditors, I expect PWCC expected to get paid back, but end borrowers likely started defaulting on their loans once the bubble burst. PWCC was owed money from people who lost their asses and owned greatly devalued cards, and PWCC’s immediate collateral was cards, held at PWCC, which likely also had been devalued. The cards were how PWCC would get paid back and, ultimately, how PWCC would pay back its creditor(s). Fake sales on PWCC’s platform almost certainly happened, and I believe the Mantle is an example of that.

I just disproved this theory a few posts back though. This fake $550k sale (which was never paid for, since PWCC does not list in on their own website) is from March 2021, and the plot I showed earlier shows that was the absolute peak of the market. PWCC was not in any financial distress at all during this time. They didn't layoff employees and sell to Fanatics until May 2023.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

#04792514 sold for
$11,042.00 SCP 08/11/13
$13,568.38 Goodwin 09/26/14
No documented sale since then

I acquired this in a trade at essentially the same value. It hasn't gone anywhere.

Great card Peter!

[Topnotchsy]

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

[Johnny630]

This is an Excellent Post.... it will always be my "THEORY" that the real money was made on the under cards of lesser grade by the INVESTORS who drove up the prices on the key big star names in higher grades... were they all paid for?? were they not paid for ? Certain Auctions Per their rules can bid on their own items. The rules are clearly there for bidders to see if they fail to they're being ignorant to their terms. I digress.. MY THEORY and that's all it is, is that many were paid for in different way's/structures set up (vaults/Fee Structures/ Cards in Return Leverage Loans ect./ Investor privileges). I 99.9% believe the sales of most lower graded key examples as being legit...people wanted in on this. It was perfect.

People were paying ridiculous numbers for low-grade Ruths, Cobbs, Wagner's, Matthewson's, Jacksons, Mantles, Robinsons, May's, Rose RC, Sever Rookie... etc... all of these in lesser grades have come back down to earth. The highly desired pre-war and early Mantles less but go into the 50s and 60s take a look at all the key big stars in grades below 8 and they have come way back and are not done.

Even in modern 7's and 8's of 86 Jordan's, 93 SP Jeter's, 80 Henderson's...

The hobby turned a blind eye to my theory because let's face it many felt good hey they're semi-rich with these cards now wow what a great time....if you thought that it felt good real good so keep it going.

So now here we all are .....it's all been very interesting to learn from. I love the depth and intellect of the members of this board.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Sone good insight there, Johnny. I can give one specific example of my own that matches your theory exactly. Just after the Gretzky OPC rookie became the first ever million dollar hockey card, I went out and bought up three of my own except they were three 6’s instead of 10’s. Today, the value of those sits at around 50% of what I paid for them. And that’s Gretzky we’re talking about. Just about the same scenario with Bird/Magic in basketball at the PSA 6 level. Jim Brown RC is a good example in football, my three 6’s are all sitting around 50% in value from what I paid for them. Vintage baseball, too many to keep track of but I believe, not nearly the same percentage drop, although more than enough for sure.

[Snapolit1]

I consigned a card to one of the AH advertisers here at the height of the bubble that sold for nearly 200k. Today? Maybe $125k? There was a major run up in prices. Some were legit sales; and others prob were not.

I seem to have missed the government handouts. I didn't get a dime.

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

[Republicaninmass]

"it's a victimless crime counselor(s)"

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I seem to have missed the government handouts. I didn't get a dime.

Did you have a payroll and rent to pay for your office in 2020-21? Why are you just figuring out now that you missed PPP and EIDL?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Did you have a payroll and rent to pay for your office in 2020-21? Why are you just figuring out now that you missed PPP and EIDL?

My firm did, but that certainly wasn't going into my wallet to buy basebal cards.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My firm did, but that certainly wasn't going into my wallet to buy basebal cards.

But PPP and EIDL were for employers who paid their employees during the pandemic, even though their offices were likely closed. Why are you pissed that you didn’t get any?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

But PPP and EIDL were for employers who paid their employees during the pandemic, even though their offices were likely closed. Why are you pissed that you didn’t get any?

Not pissed about anything. Don't understand the argument that one of the main reasons the card market ran up in 2021 was that people were sitting on huge piles of cash they got from the government and need to find places to spend it. Have seen that argument here many times and don't see how it makes any sense.

If a government loan allowed my employer to send me my paycheck 2x a month, why would I be any more flush with cash?

[calvindog]

I don’t buy that argument either. I don’t think PPP payments made employers flush with cash. I received about 200K in PPP and lost about $1M in income in 2020 due to the courts being closed or much slower. No one who worked for me lost a penny in salary though or had to pay a penny towards their health insurance. I paid for it all. Maybe it was my employees who were driving up the card market?

[Peter_Spaeth]

To the extent the pandemic played a role, I think it's that people did not have their usual recreation/entertainment outlets, not that 1K government checks to individuals added that much to the demand side.

[Leon]

I am not saying it made a difference, and certainly not for a very expensive card, but there was a lot more stimulus than just the PPP....People were receiving much more than their jobs paid, to be doing nothing. Never understood how they should make more but it happened. Not getting political but our govt. needs to quit spending like a drunken sailor on payday. It's going to be a mess in the future, imo.
Back to the carrd at hand, that top sale should be investigated by LE....
.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am not saying it made a difference, and certainly not for a very expensive card, but there was a lot more stimulus than just the PPP....People were receiving much more than their jobs paid, to be doing nothing. Never understood how they should make more but it happened. Not getting political but our govt. needs to quit spending like a drunken sailor on payday. It's going to be a mess in the future, imo.
Back to the carrd at hand, that top sale should be investigated by LE....
.

I'm going to agree with Leon here, and not merely because he's our benevolent overlord.

In addition to the general sentiment about spending, a reminder that there were 3 rounds of direct payments to individuals/families, which you can read about here:

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-iss...mpact-payments

For some within my orbit with a handful of kids and whatnot, they received total direct payments from our generous friends in DC that ran well into 5 figures, all while continuing their jobs and continuing to get paid for their jobs. For many of us, I suspect we don't remember getting anything because we make too much. Or because it's been a hot minute and memories fade quickly at our age.

On the other side of the ledger, there were student loan payment pauses that just barely ended (last month, if memory serves). Plus some people stopped paying rent or their mortgage because those were also paused in many states. Add it all up and it's a lot of extra cash for fun stuff, with relatively few fun options outside of letting it ride on crypto and the equity markets, or buying more cardboard.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Not pissed about anything. Don't understand the argument that one of the main reasons the card market ran up in 2021 was that people were sitting on huge piles of cash they got from the government and need to find places to spend it. Have seen that argument here many times and don't see how it makes any sense.

If a government loan allowed my employer to send me my paycheck 2x a month, why would I be any more flush with cash?

I'm going to guess that PPP funds to buy cards was the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps I'm just ignorant, but I can't imagine most people taking PPP funds and using it like that. Again, since it is something that was ripe for fraud, I'm sure there was abuse. It's just too bad those bad apples can't be tied to it and then hung out to dry.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm going to guess that PPP funds to buy cards was the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps I'm just ignorant, but I can't imagine most people taking PPP funds and using it like that. Again, since it is something that was ripe for fraud, I'm sure there was abuse. It's just too bad those bad apples can't be tied to it and then hung out to dry.

Guess you missed at least one poster on here who was gloating about it. One of our counselors

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

I think many are realizing now. I have heard the term "buried" in the last few months more than in a long time. And by "buried" I mean I bought too high and now I can't sell close to what I bought it for. Very sad.

[darwinbulldog]

I presume this has already been pointed out, but the whole market's down about 50%. Nothing special going on with the Mantle.

[jsfriedm]

The SGC 7 Heritage Mantle was at 260 (before BP), then a reserve was posted at 320. Last night they lowered the reserve to 280.