Same SGC 7 Mantle Sold 4 times in 15 months

[Peter_Spaeth]

#04792514 sold for
$11,042.00 SCP 08/11/13
$13,568.38 Goodwin 09/26/14
No documented sale since then

I acquired this in a trade at essentially the same value. It hasn't gone anywhere.

[Casey2296]

Nice Cobby Peter!.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://mavin.io/item/1952-Topps-Mic...antle%20%23311

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also, someone tells me the SGC cert is not active?

[Rhotchkiss]

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Betsy wouldn't lie.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Betsy wouldn't lie.

Let's be clear about our claims here. You guys are accusing PWCC (and Betsy and Brent specifically) of faking these sales. Without evidence, I should add.

However, when you go to PWCC's sales history page, neither the $550k sale nor the $950k sale are listed. If the sales were real, and paid for, they would be listed.

So where do these "comps" come from? According to VCP, the $550k sale was an eBay sale where the seller was "pwcc_vault". The same is true of this "Mavin" sale. It says it was an eBay sale from the seller "pwcc_vault". Yet, PWCC doesn't list either of these sales.

The only auction house I am aware of that reports items as "sold" even if they don't get paid for is eBay. Which is where both of these "sales" (which apparently were not paid for according to PWCC's own records) occurred.

So your beef here is with eBay, yet it's being misdirected toward PWCC, despite not being warranted.

Someone faked the sales on eBay (all that is required is for some random account with zero feedback to "make an offer" or click on "buy it now" and then never pay). This is entirely on the consigner and/or the shill bidder. Not on PWCC.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

#04792514 sold for
$11,042.00 SCP 08/11/13
$13,568.38 Goodwin 09/26/14
No documented sale since then

I acquired this in a trade at essentially the same value. It hasn't gone anywhere.

Great card Peter!

[Topnotchsy]

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

[Johnny630]

This is an Excellent Post.... it will always be my "THEORY" that the real money was made on the under cards of lesser grade by the INVESTORS who drove up the prices on the key big star names in higher grades... were they all paid for?? were they not paid for ? Certain Auctions Per their rules can bid on their own items. The rules are clearly there for bidders to see if they fail to they're being ignorant to their terms. I digress.. MY THEORY and that's all it is, is that many were paid for in different way's/structures set up (vaults/Fee Structures/ Cards in Return Leverage Loans ect./ Investor privileges). I 99.9% believe the sales of most lower graded key examples as being legit...people wanted in on this. It was perfect.

People were paying ridiculous numbers for low-grade Ruths, Cobbs, Wagner's, Matthewson's, Jacksons, Mantles, Robinsons, May's, Rose RC, Sever Rookie... etc... all of these in lesser grades have come back down to earth. The highly desired pre-war and early Mantles less but go into the 50s and 60s take a look at all the key big stars in grades below 8 and they have come way back and are not done.

Even in modern 7's and 8's of 86 Jordan's, 93 SP Jeter's, 80 Henderson's...

The hobby turned a blind eye to my theory because let's face it many felt good hey they're semi-rich with these cards now wow what a great time....if you thought that it felt good real good so keep it going.

So now here we all are .....it's all been very interesting to learn from. I love the depth and intellect of the members of this board.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Sone good insight there, Johnny. I can give one specific example of my own that matches your theory exactly. Just after the Gretzky OPC rookie became the first ever million dollar hockey card, I went out and bought up three of my own except they were three 6’s instead of 10’s. Today, the value of those sits at around 50% of what I paid for them. And that’s Gretzky we’re talking about. Just about the same scenario with Bird/Magic in basketball at the PSA 6 level. Jim Brown RC is a good example in football, my three 6’s are all sitting around 50% in value from what I paid for them. Vintage baseball, too many to keep track of but I believe, not nearly the same percentage drop, although more than enough for sure.

[Snapolit1]

I consigned a card to one of the AH advertisers here at the height of the bubble that sold for nearly 200k. Today? Maybe $125k? There was a major run up in prices. Some were legit sales; and others prob were not.

I seem to have missed the government handouts. I didn't get a dime.

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

[Republicaninmass]

"it's a victimless crime counselor(s)"

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I seem to have missed the government handouts. I didn't get a dime.

Did you have a payroll and rent to pay for your office in 2020-21? Why are you just figuring out now that you missed PPP and EIDL?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Did you have a payroll and rent to pay for your office in 2020-21? Why are you just figuring out now that you missed PPP and EIDL?

My firm did, but that certainly wasn't going into my wallet to buy basebal cards.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My firm did, but that certainly wasn't going into my wallet to buy basebal cards.

But PPP and EIDL were for employers who paid their employees during the pandemic, even though their offices were likely closed. Why are you pissed that you didn’t get any?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I have no way of knowing whether the really high sales were legit or not. But I am quite confident that there were many, many people who bought into the bubble.

Prices were skyrocketing, the narrative was that VC and other investment money had entered the hobby. A huge glut of people seemed to join the hobby during COVID (can't that couldn't be spent on experiences was being spent on things, and gov handouts meant a lot of expendible cash in the market).

With those factors and a crazy hype machine running, I believe that a ton of legit sales occurred with people buying into the hype, and in many cases, people spent money they did not have.

Thankfully for me the areas I collect are niche enough that they didn't go through the volatility (which mostly seemed to hit more popular items). It sickens me how many people who were unaware got hit really hard, whether it was new collectors who had no reference point, or vintage collectors who value what they collect and believed that others were finally catching on, not realizing it was a bubble.

I think many are realizing now. I have heard the term "buried" in the last few months more than in a long time. And by "buried" I mean I bought too high and now I can't sell close to what I bought it for. Very sad.

[darwinbulldog]

I presume this has already been pointed out, but the whole market's down about 50%. Nothing special going on with the Mantle.

[jsfriedm]

The SGC 7 Heritage Mantle was at 260 (before BP), then a reserve was posted at 320. Last night they lowered the reserve to 280.

[Republicaninmass]

My guess would be

Consign the card with an easy 5% back to consignor if not more maybe even 10-15% based on the Auction House

Friend buys the card and consignor pays them the full amount only losing a portion of the BP/ covers their loss


Rinse and repeat until someone overpays
..eventually getting more (last year or so)

Pump up others of similar grade or close to it to dollar cost average