Ty cobb autograph cut - psa/dna 9 mint

[smotan_02]

Autograph Threads--- The Soap Opera of the hobby

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Okay, conspiracy theorists. First off, I was unable to make it home on the 23rd as I was supposed to. I flew in for one week in another city for a new government class on new regulations for my industry. Then, had to come back to work early because my counterpart had a death in the family. I never made it home. I am now back at work for my normal two weeks at my workplace. PSA has the cut signature. My wife mailed it out via air mail last week. They are currently examining it, as I am told by Jackie Curiel (secretary to the president). I have no other information until their review is final. As for the Williams' pics..... I can't help you if I'm not home to take pictures. You will just have to wait another 2 weeks like I do. So.....put the pitchforks down & wait until there is actually more information to share.

Thanks,
Donavon

some here expect you to stop your life, quit your job, leave your wife, fly to CA with the cobb, knock down psa door, demand joe orlando to explain the cut and the 300k ruth baseballs, and report back to the board on march 24th...because that's what an honorable man of his word would do.

...anything less and psa paid you off or you're in cahoot with orlando and part of the problem...be damn with common sense and patience. the obsession is getting scary.

[travrosty]

donovan, thanks for posting.

the pitchforks were never up, but when you said you would be around on the 23rd to put up the picture of the williams sigs, we took you at your word.

thanks for keeping us updated. keep us posted every few days.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

some here expect you to stop your life, quit your job, leave your wife, fly to CA with the cobb, knock down psa door, demand joe orlando to explain the cut and the 300k ruth baseballs, and report back to the board on march 24th...because that's what an honorable man of his word would do.

...anything less and psa paid you off or you're in cahoot with orlando and part of the problem...be damn with common sense and patience. the obsession is getting scary.

I'm starting to see that. Forget the fact that I haven't seen my wife & kids in over a month, but hey.....PSA has the Cobb now.....thanks to my wife. LOL.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

some here expect you to stop your life, quit your job, leave your wife, fly to CA with the cobb, knock down psa door, demand joe orlando to explain the cut and the 300k ruth baseballs, and report back to the board on march 24th...because that's what an honorable man of his word would do.

...anything less and psa paid you off or you're in cahoot with orlando and part of the problem...be damn with common sense and patience. the obsession is getting scary.

he simply said he would be around on the 23rd to post the pictures, which he didn't and he never showed up. that's not our fault. two weeks went by and nothing, so we had every right to be skeptical. He must have been visiting the land of no computers he couldn't quickly log on and tell us why the delay? we didnt expect the verdict from psa on the 23rd, but we did expect him to keep his word and show up like he promised. we didnt grab the pitchforks on the 23rd, the next day would have been fine, or the next day, or the next day, or the next day. but two more weeks go by a guy has to wonder.

I am still very interested to see what psa has to say.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i've given up on the guy, he disappeared. if psa had stuck by their original authentication and said it was real during the re-examination, Donovan would have come on here and we wouldn't have heard the end of it. Looks like that didn't happen and he isn't saying anything for a particular reason.

I asked him for the two ted williams that look alike, and he said he would post them over a week ago. he doesnt want to do that now, because doing that means that he is available, and by not talking all together, he wants us to think he is away or not available.

That & the other posts by yourself & Mr. Simon certainly sounds like the pitchforks were out. Just saying.......

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

That & the other posts by yourself & Mr. Simon certainly sounds like the pitchforks were out. Just saying.......

as you can read, after the 23rd, we didnt grab the pitchfords, we made many posts asking where you were, and if you could come and give us updates.

its only after two weeks went by we had every right to believe you would never show since you said you would give us an update on the 23rd when you got back.

i still would like to see the williams sigs

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

as you can read, after the 23rd, we didnt grab the pitchfords, we made many posts asking where you were, and if you could come and give us updates.

its only after two weeks went by we had every right to believe you would never show since you said you would give us an update on the 23rd when you got back.

i still would like to see the williams sigs

It will be another two weeks before I return home, but I may have some pictures of the Williams' autos from my old home. I will check & post them if so. That said......to imply that I stayed away from the board because I was "hiding" is simply wreckless. My time is needed in other areas as well, such as work, home, etc... Some of us do have lives outside of collecting. Unfortunately, I had to appease the government when I was supposed to be at home. To me, it sounds alot like the owner of the Hauls of Shame website giving out opinions on things that they have never themselves actually examined. "It's a fake. It's a laser copy, although I've never actually examined it." Travis, I know you have this vendetta against PSA, as clearly signaled by your exerpt from the aforementioned website. They do make mistakes, just as we humans often do. But they also get it right most of the time, regardless of what "Mr. Pop Goes The Weasel" has to say. By the way...... is anyone else here aware of that guy's legal troubles? He's being sued by just about everyone in the hobby, including a certain auction house CEO (that I would go to bat for any day) for over $800,000. And my integrity is questioned? What a load of b.s.!

[chaddurbin]

to me it looks like the same sig. i'm hoping for OP's sake psa does the right thing here, which history tells us is about 50/50. i would not be surprised if the cert # is suddenly gone from psa database in a couple weeks...but let the process play out.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

It will be another two weeks before I return home, but I may have some pictures of the Williams' autos from my old home. I will check & post them if so. That said......to imply that I stayed away from the board because I was "hiding" is simply wreckless. My time is needed in other areas as well, such as work, home, etc... Some of us do have lives outside of collecting. Unfortunately, I had to appease the government when I was supposed to be at home. To me, it sounds alot like the owner of the Hauls of Shame website giving out opinions on things that they have never themselves actually examined. "It's a fake. It's a laser copy, although I've never actually examined it." Travis, I know you have this vendetta against PSA, as clearly signaled by your exerpt from the aforementioned website. They do make mistakes, just as we humans often do. But they also get it right most of the time, regardless of what "Mr. Pop Goes The Weasel" has to say. By the way...... is anyone else here aware of that guy's legal troubles? He's being sued by just about everyone in the hobby, including a certain auction house CEO (that I would go to bat for any day) for over $800,000. And my integrity is questioned? What a load of b.s.!

I was railing against psa LONG, LONG, LONG before I ever heard the name Peter Nash, ok? Let's make this bad Cobb autograph about him, that somehow makes the autograph real, doesn't it? It's about the autograph, and the track record of PSA is what it is. I ask some people if PSA could have possibly certed a reprint, and they say no way, but the real PSA I can't put anything past just because we know what they have done in the past, it's scary.

but for some of us, this autograph is not up in the air, it's a settled issue already. But it's okay, I am willing to put all aside and wait for the verdict, I just want to see what PSA does, because they only have two options, real or fake.

They can say it's real, which is the funnest option. They can say it's fake, which they won't do in public and apologize, they would only do it privately with an agreement most liekly, that's why the odds are we won't hear it, it will just be silence. That's why we really want to hear the verdict, because silence= you know what.

All in all, no one here, richard and myself, are critical of you personally, but when you didn't show for two weeks after you said you would, we had reason to think we wouldn't hear from you again. And we want to hear from you again.

We might be critical of PSA, but they can prove us wrong and stick to their original "authentic" decision.

We have nothing against you, we just want to know the verdict. I am sure you do too.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Donavon

I'm actually out of town right now, but sure.....I can post pics of both Williams' autos when I return home in 8 days.

As for the Cobb, I have made up my mind that no matter what, I will keep the autograph for the simple reminder of this whole episode. In thirty years of collecting, I have never encountered this. It's the reason I've never sold an autograph without 3rd party authentication by PSA/DNA or JSA. I will have Joe Orlando & PSA/DNA investigate it & I will have another reputable authenticator examine it as well. One way or another, we will find out. My wife says I should frame it & deem it something quirky like "The Laser Cobb" when all is said & done.

P.S.- I bought the Cobb & the rest a couple years back & never sent the Cobb in for grading because of the charges to authenticate a Cobb signature. I had it graded during a PSA/DNA promotion in February of this year.

This was posted on 3/14 by Don. Return home = 3/22. That is why we were questioning you Don. By your own admission you were going to post the Williams photos on 3/23 and ship off the Cobb on that date. Then for 10 days we never hear from you. That is what brought up the questions. We were going by what you said in your own post.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

to me it looks like the same sig. i'm hoping for OP's sake psa does the right thing here, which history tells us is about 50/50. i would not be surprised if the cert # is suddenly gone from psa database in a couple weeks...but let the process play out.

The easier way for PSA, like I mentioned in a prior post, is to examine the Cobb, if they determine it is fake they reimburse Don. They keep the Cobb and destroy it and keep it in the database, thus admitting no error and never having to answer any questions about it.

[Donavon]

Okay.....I finally received word from PSA/DNA on the Cobb cut signature. The cut was, in fact, deemed a forgery. After a lengthy discussion with the operations manager, it seems that there is an amazing forger out there. The cut was not a laser copy as previously speculated, but a well made forgery by someone with a very skilled hand. PSA/DNA will be sending the cut back to me to do as I wish. They will also be removing it from their authentic data base, & reimbursing me for my troubles. So.....for all the negative attention, I would have to say that PSA/DNA did their job thoroughly. No one tried to cover up anything & they corrected their mistake, unlike what some have insinuated. We as human beings make mistakes, but to be honest & correct those mistakes takes a great deal of integrity. Therefore, I am quite pleased at the way PSA has handled the situation all together. You can also rest assured that this particular cut will never again see the marketplace. Thanks to everyone, especially Leon, for making me aware of the issue & helping me to get this situation fixed.

Sincerely,
Donavon

[travrosty]

Thank you for your response, Donovan.

[travrosty]

Donovan,

funny how they can tell an exact copy was in a forgers hand and not cobbs?

wonder what the tell tale signals were? if it was the exact same form as the original, how do they know cobb didnt sign it?

must be a thorough forger to add those several stray dots in the same spots as was shown in ron's example.

my view.

I don't suppose we can get specifics from psa on how they came to the conclusion it was a forgery when they couldn't tell the first time. What tipped them off this time?

I am not badgering you Donovan, I am badgering PSA because this doesn't sound right to me.

If you arent doing anything with it, could you mark it forgery on the back, and loan it to me for a week so i can see it? i would be very interested in checking it out.

again, you sent it to psa, and you got your response from them, so i have nothing against you.

travis

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Thank you for your response, Donovan.

Your welcome, Travis. And I will still post those Williams' auto pictures for you once I return home.

[travrosty]

great. thanks, again, nothing personal, if psa screwed up the first time by giving it a cert, that is their fault, not yours.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Donovan,

funny how they can tell an exact copy was in a forgers hand and not cobbs?

wonder what the tell tale signals were? if it was the exact same form as the original, how do they know cobb didnt sign it?

must be a thorough forger to add those several stray dots in the same spots as was shown in ron's example.

my view.

I don't suppose we can get specifics from psa on how they came to the conclusion it was a forgery when they couldn't tell the first time. What tipped them off this time?

I am not badgering you Donovan, I am badgering PSA because this doesn't sound right to me.

If you arent doing anything with it, could you mark it forgery on the back, and loan it to me for a week so i can see it? i would be very interested in checking it out.

again, you sent it to psa, and you got your response from them, so i have nothing against you.

travis

Travis,

I do not know what their tell tale signals were. I was fooled myself, as the cut had indentation on the back of the paper, showing someone had written it. As for the print dots, I have no idea either. Mr. Keurajian's also had a couple others that mine did not, so that wasn't definitive for me either. The cut will be destroyed via flame as soon as it is returned. It will not be allowed to once again find itself in the marketplace under any circumstances. I will say this.....I believe that there was more than just PSA staff re-evaluating this cut. So.....as for me sending it......that's a big NO GO. I do not want this fake surviving in any way, shape, or form.

P.S.- It does make me wonder though, how a forgery found it's way in books from the 30's & 40's that contained authentic Goudey cards within it's pages as well.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

great. thanks, again, nothing personal, if psa screwed up the first time by giving it a cert, that is their fault, not yours.

They are human. They made a mistake. They fixed their mistake. I cannot hold ill will towards them for being human. They at least admitted & corrected that mistake. Alot of other companies would have not done that. Just saying......Even the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown once housed fakes & that was long before PSA/DNA or JSA.

[RichardSimon]

Donavon - this is not a post meant to impugn you, you were told something by PSA and are repeating it here.
But I believe the forgers name is Hewlett Packard and it did a fine job. A master job , as a matter of fact.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

They are human. They made a mistake. They fixed their mistake. I cannot hold ill will towards them for being human. They at least admitted & corrected that mistake. Alot of other companies would have not done that. Just saying......Even the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown once housed fakes & that was long before PSA/DNA or JSA.

Could you tell us what they said in more detail?

did they say it was done by hand, or does master forger mean master computer technician or master pressman?


If you mark it "forgery" on the back no one can try to pass it off as real.

It is worth a lot as a tool of education and to destroy it is shortsighted. but psa wouldn't mind if it saw the flame quickly.

How about letting someone else confirm their findings? Ron K, or Richard Simon, or me or anybody?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Travis,

I do not know what their tell tale signals were. I was fooled myself, as the cut had indentation on the back of the paper, showing someone had written it. As for the print dots, I have no idea either. Mr. Keurajian's also had a couple others that mine did not, so that wasn't definitive for me either. The cut will be destroyed via flame as soon as it is returned. It will not be allowed to once again find itself in the marketplace under any circumstances. I will say this.....I believe that there was more than just PSA staff re-evaluating this cut. So.....as for me sending it......that's a big NO GO. I do not want this fake surviving in any way, shape, or form.

P.S.- It does make me wonder though, how a forgery found it's way in books from the 30's & 40's that contained authentic Goudey cards within it's pages as well.

But if you send it to me, and i study it, then i send it back, how will it find its way into the marketplace? unless you think i am going to keep it. i assure you i wouldn't. neither would richard simon. do you not want someone else to look at it for fear of what they might find and that finding might be different than what psa said?

remember, trusting psa's re-examination has to be with a grain of salt, because they are the ones who got it wrong in the first place. how about giving someone else a chance?

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

But if you send it to me, and i study it, then i send it back, how will it find its way into the marketplace? unless you think i am going to keep it. i assure you i wouldn't. neither would richard simon. do you not want someone else to look at it for fear of what they might find and that finding might be different than what psa said?

remember, trusting psa's re-examination has to be with a grain of salt, because they are the ones who got it wrong in the first place. how about giving someone else a chance?

Travis,

Again.....the cut will be destroyed so that it will never again surface in the marketplace.....end of discussion. It is not out of fear of something that might be discovered or anything else. I just don't want this particular cut ever to have the chance of being sold or used to produce fakes to be sold in the marketplace again. It's not about you or Mr. Simon. It's about me wanting to eliminate something that does not belong in our hobby. Too many people have been the victims of this, including myself. Before the cut was pulled from ebay, it could have been sold to 5 different offers. Any of those people could have lost their hard earned money to something that was counterfeit had I accepted their best offers before it was pulled. I don't want it to have that oppurtunity again. Sorry.

[travrosty]

so you are saying you wouldnt trust richard simon not to try to copy it or sell it, etc.

c'mon, that excuse stinks. Wanting to quickly destroy it, only makes it sound bad that you have something to hide.

Please scan it first and send to my email a crisp, clear scan. Remember, ron's cobb is already on the internet on a good scan, so there is no fear that anyone would use a scan to copy it when ron's is already out there.

i would like to compare good scans. But if you are bent on destroying it as soon as it gets back, we can only assume there is something to hide.

You are among respected hobbyists here, no one is going to steal your fake cobb cut.

Could you elaborate on exactly what psa said regarding this master forger. surely they had a more detailed report on this autograph.

You are a victim, if you want to help others, mark it forgery and save it for future research. How is it going to get into someone else's hands if you are the owner?

[yanks12025]

Once you get it back can you take another picture of it, just to show that they did give it back.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Once you get it back can you take another picture of it, just to show that they did give it back.

that is a great idea, include a copy of the current days newspaper.

i don't see how that could be hard to do. i will pay for the newspaper, usa today or whatever so we can confirm that you got it back.

[slidekellyslide]

Why would PSA reimburse this guy and then send it back? If they're paying out for their mistake wouldn't they keep it and destroy it themselves?

And Donovan, if you do get it back I hope you will send it to Richard Simon...you can be assured he would never let that get back into the hobby.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Why would PSA reimburse this guy and then send it back? If they're paying out for their mistake wouldn't they keep it and destroy it themselves?

Although I haven't commented until now, I have been keeping up with this thread. Dan, I asked the same question to Travis via PM. If PSA/DNA reimburses Donovan for the item, why would they give it back? It makes no sense. They own it at that point and you would think they wouldn't want it back on the market.

There have been other board members that have had to use PSA/DNAs buy back guarantee and I wonder if they got their item(s) back? I would love for one of them to chime in.

[Republicaninmass]

As for the print dots, I have no idea either


Funny, most people here do

[jbhofmann]

Send it to Jimmy Spence.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Although I haven't commented until now, I have been keeping up with this thread. Dan, I asked the same question to Travis via PM. If PSA/DNA reimburses Donovan for the item, why would they give it back? It makes no sense. They own it at that point and you would think they wouldn't want it back on the market.

There have been other board members that have had to use PSA/DNAs buy back guarantee and I wonder if they got their item(s) back? I would love for one of them to chime in.

Did they reimburse him for the item or reimburse him for his authentication
fee(s)?
The item, legally, belongs to Donavon.
Why won't they learn,,,the cover up is always worse than the actual event.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Did they reimburse him for the item or reimburse him for his authentication
fee(s)?
The item, legally, belongs to Donavon.
Why won't they learn,,,the cover up is always worse than the actual event.

Richard,

To answer your question, they told me that they were reimbursing me for my submission fees, as well as adding $100 to cover all of the costs of shipping, etc.... I asked for nothing, only for them to get it right. This is what they proposed. There is no cover up & there is no conspiracy. Just a mistake they made & corrected. If you want the auto.... you are welcome to fly in & get it from me before it is destroyed, but I'm not putting it in the mail. I will PM you. It's not a conspiracy or that I feel you would try to sell it, but lost mail happens & I don't want to take that chance. I am really, really tired of the whole conspiracy theory thing here, like someone is trying to hide something. I came on this forum and posted results from PSA just like I said I would......good or bad. I'm just not sending a forgery in the mail to someone I don't know & never have met in person, because that's what they want me to do.

[travrosty]

Donavon,

Richard has a long list of hobby credentials and many, many references.

Send it delivery confirmation, registered mail.

Believe me, it will get there.

Harry Winston sent the hope diamond through the regular mail this way, no lie. I think if the hope diamond made it through a slightly less valuable item liike yours can make it too. The odds of registered mail getting lost through the mail is slim and none, and slim just left town. I will pay for the cost.



Hope Diamond Mail Wrapper, Postmark: Nov. 8, 1958
Smithsonian’s National Postal Museum

When he donated the Hope Diamond to the Smithsonian Institution in 1958, jeweler Harry Winston sent the fabled gem by registered first-class mail. This package carried the diamond on its trip from New York City to Washington, D.C.

Of the $145.29 mailing price, only $2.44 was for postage. The balance was the insurance fee for $1 million. This object is one of 137 million artifacts, works of art and specimens in the Smithsonian’s collection. This object is not on display.

[GrayGhost]

A package w all that postage on it, and stuff is a lightning rod for someone to steal/open.

[travrosty]

you would think so, but it was the preferred way for at least some jewelers to send valuable items to their destination. From the Smithsonian site.

--------------------------

Jeweler Harry Winston bought the diamond and donated it to the Smithsonian. And how did he send it? Winston simply placed the priceless diamond in a plain brown paper wrapper and sent it by registered first-class mail. He said, “It’s the safest way to mail gems. I’ve sent gems all over the world that way."

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Travis,

I have been going through this on the website that has called it a "forgery". I purchased it from a person who had an estate of 30's & early 40's books & original Goudey cards. The Goudeys that were gradable have all been sent to PSA & none were counterfeit. I find it hard to believe that a "laser copy", as they deem it, would have indentation on the back of the paper. I am by no means an autograph expert. I can tell pixellations & lack of writing flow, but that's as far as I go. That is why the cut was sent to PSA/DNA......so the experts could authenticate or not authenticate it. As for as one or the other having to be fake, I don't necessarily agree with that either. I have two Ted Williams autos that I got in person in the 80's that are identical.

donavon,

can you show me the identical williams sigs that you promised me over a month ago?