Ty cobb autograph cut - psa/dna 9 mint

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Donavon,

How can two autographs look exactly the same?

There are only 3 possibilities.

1. Ron K's is original, yours is a copy,

2. yours is original, and his is a copy.

3 They are both copies,


scenario 4 is impossible, They can't both be original.


did you find them personally in a cache? or did someone else and then sold or gave them to you? just interested in hearing the story on how this one came about.

Have you ever had it examined by a document examiner to determine if it is an original signature?

Travis,

I have been going through this on the website that has called it a "forgery". I purchased it from a person who had an estate of 30's & early 40's books & original Goudey cards. The Goudeys that were gradable have all been sent to PSA & none were counterfeit. I find it hard to believe that a "laser copy", as they deem it, would have indentation on the back of the paper. I am by no means an autograph expert. I can tell pixellations & lack of writing flow, but that's as far as I go. That is why the cut was sent to PSA/DNA......so the experts could authenticate or not authenticate it. As for as one or the other having to be fake, I don't necessarily agree with that either. I have two Ted Williams autos that I got in person in the 80's that are identical.

[Donavon]

Also.....please disregard the "for sale". I will not sell this cut until this whole issue has been completely investigated & is resolved. I believe in integrity & honesty & will not sell anything of which is in question. I have emailed PSA/DNA & will be seeking a document examiner's opinion as well.

P.S.- My sincerest thanks to all from this forum who have made me aware of the website calling it a forgery & it's credibility.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Travis,

I have been going through this on the website that has called it a "forgery". I purchased it from a person who had an estate of 30's & early 40's books & original Goudey cards. The Goudeys that were gradable have all been sent to PSA & none were counterfeit. I find it hard to believe that a "laser copy", as they deem it, would have indentation on the back of the paper. I am by no means an autograph expert. I can tell pixellations & lack of writing flow, but that's as far as I go. That is why the cut was sent to PSA/DNA......so the experts could authenticate or not authenticate it. As for as one or the other having to be fake, I don't necessarily agree with that either. I have two Ted Williams autos that I got in person in the 80's that are identical.

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can you remember when you bought it and when you sent it in to psa?

can you post these williams autos? if i couldnt tell those williams apart, then these cobbs would be under a whole new light.

eyeballing these two cobbs for a half hour reveals no differences in size, slant, formation at all.

these two cobbs are exactly, exactly alike, and no one can write their name exactly alike twice. because making the case that they are two different autographs would be the only way for them both to be good. but i dont see it.

if you have a good cobb, it will be revealed to be good, and bad will be bad. there are definitive ways to tell.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

can you post these williams autos? eyeballing these two cobbs for a half hour reveals no differences in size, slant, formation at all.

these two cobbs are exactly, exactly alike, and no one can write their name exactly alike twice. because making the case that they are two different autographs would be the only way for them both to be good. but i dont see it.

if you have a good cobb, it will be revealed to be good, and bad will be bad. there are definitive ways to tell.

I'm actually out of town right now, but sure.....I can post pics of both Williams' autos when I return home in 8 days.

As for the Cobb, I have made up my mind that no matter what, I will keep the autograph for the simple reminder of this whole episode. In thirty years of collecting, I have never encountered this. It's the reason I've never sold an autograph without 3rd party authentication by PSA/DNA or JSA. I will have Joe Orlando & PSA/DNA investigate it & I will have another reputable authenticator examine it as well. One way or another, we will find out. My wife says I should frame it & deem it something quirky like "The Laser Cobb" when all is said & done.

P.S.- I bought the Cobb & the rest a couple years back & never sent the Cobb in for grading because of the charges to authenticate a Cobb signature. I had it graded during a PSA/DNA promotion in February of this year.

[Donavon]

This has really bothered me since Leon brought it up to my attention, so I spent half of the night looking at both specimens in question. I noticed a few differences in the two autos. Would really like some others feedback.

In the so called "original" as Mr. Nash calls it, where the "T" in Ty makes an "X", going up & left from the center of the "X" there is a distinct dot where it appears the pen sat longer. There is no dot in mine. Where the "T" in Ty makes a "J", there appears to be more space in the Keurajian copy. The "X" in the Ty is again, going downward & left from the center of the "X" in the "original" the pen mark becomes immediately thinner in the "original". This does not happen in mine. In the "C" on the "original", as the "C" is coming down left to right, the "C" appears quite circular & the ink thins as it is coming down. The "C" in mine is not quite as circular at the top & does not thin as it comes down. The first "B" in Cobb on the "original"....from the very top coming down the ink gets thinner. Mine does not get thinner until closer to the "o" part of the "B". Also....look closely at both "o" parts of the first "B" in Cobb. They do not flow the same. Also.....look at the line connecting the two "B's" in both autos. The "original" gets thinner as it connects to the second "B". Mine gets thicker. Last, but not least.....look at the line under Cobb's name. There is a small hump directly under the 2nd "B" in mine & after the "Y" as well. The Keurajian copy does not have either of these small humps in the line below Cobb's name. They are very subtle, but blow up the Keurajian copy to the same size as my copy, and you will notice that this is not the same auto.

[GrayGhost]

To me, they look almost EXACTLY the same, right down to the part of the T where there is a lightness in the pen. I think they r one and the same signature. That said, I can recall a dealer friend of mine years back w several Mantle balls he got IN PERSON at the show we were at, and they looked basically EXACT as well. So, I guess it IS possible. The one thing that really bugs me tho is the lightness area on the T seems IDENTICAL in both. If two diff, why would that happen in EXACTLY the same place?

Best of luck tho on a resolution for this sir.

[travrosty]

it is exactly the same autograph, and here is proof,

on ron's cobb signature, which a high res scan is enclosed, there are a series of dots on the paper,

and on the encapsulated cobb, those same dots are on the item in the same spots, i have circled the dots. i have shown the encapsulated item with and without my circles around the dots. so the background was scanned and printed on too, not JUST the green ink of cobbs signature.

the scan and subsequent printing picked up those dots and even though they are faint, they are still there in the same spots as rons cobb signature.

so we can get that out of the way and come to the conclusion that one is a copy of the other. i didnt say which one but its not looking good for the encapsulated one.

[ss]

Send it to Rich Simon and he can report back to all of us with his findings.

[GrayGhost]

I think Travis' dot thing is a pretty good clincher that it is the same. wow.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Donavon

I'm actually out of town right now, but sure.....I can post pics of both Williams' autos when I return home in 8 days.

As for the Cobb, I have made up my mind that no matter what, I will keep the autograph for the simple reminder of this whole episode. In thirty years of collecting, I have never encountered this. It's the reason I've never sold an autograph without 3rd party authentication by PSA/DNA or JSA. I will have Joe Orlando & PSA/DNA investigate it & I will have another reputable authenticator examine it as well. One way or another, we will find out. My wife says I should frame it & deem it something quirky like "The Laser Cobb" when all is said & done.

P.S.- I bought the Cobb & the rest a couple years back & never sent the Cobb in for grading because of the charges to authenticate a Cobb signature. I had it graded during a PSA/DNA promotion in February of this year.

This was posted on 3/14 by Don. Return home = 3/22. That is why we were questioning you Don. By your own admission you were going to post the Williams photos on 3/23 and ship off the Cobb on that date. Then for 10 days we never hear from you. That is what brought up the questions. We were going by what you said in your own post.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Travis,

I have been going through this on the website that has called it a "forgery". I purchased it from a person who had an estate of 30's & early 40's books & original Goudey cards. The Goudeys that were gradable have all been sent to PSA & none were counterfeit. I find it hard to believe that a "laser copy", as they deem it, would have indentation on the back of the paper. I am by no means an autograph expert. I can tell pixellations & lack of writing flow, but that's as far as I go. That is why the cut was sent to PSA/DNA......so the experts could authenticate or not authenticate it. As for as one or the other having to be fake, I don't necessarily agree with that either. I have two Ted Williams autos that I got in person in the 80's that are identical.

donavon,

can you show me the identical williams sigs that you promised me over a month ago?