Muhammad Ali Autograph on Angelo Marino REAL?

[travrosty]

Give me a nice big photo of the autograph, straight on and i will tell you if it is real or not.


nice print otherwise and to say its undesirable because of a name is crazy.

[Mr. Zipper]

What am I missing here? The OP states his grandfather and father "hired the artist and athlete to sign the Original and 550 limited litho's." Plus he has photographs of the signing session.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by travrosty

nice print otherwise and to say its undesirable because of a name is crazy.

Call me crazy. I don't want any artwork in my home that came from the family behind the biggest forgery ring in history. Angelo Marino was not an unknowing bystander. Tens of thousands of victims. Tens of millions in fraud. I could never look at it without thinking of that.

[drc]

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

[drc]

What you could do is post one signature on eBay and get a PSA/DNA or JSA Quick Opinion. If one and/or the other approves, this gives independent evidence to buyers that the signature is genuine.

What I would do to get their opinion is post how it was from a signing for your family, with photo of Ali sigining but not mention the Marino angle. This is to get their objective opinion. When you then turn to sell them, you can mention the Marino angle.

I got a PSA/DNA Quick opinion for a Dr. Mike Marshall signed baseball and it was quick and easy. I mentioned I bought it from Lelands, with picture of the catalog listing, as I thought it would help my cause-- and got thumbs up. The process was easy, took less than 24 hours and you get the opinion in print outable form.

One can fairly argue about the merits of paying for a PSA/DNA opinion, but it definitely helped in resale of a rare autograph. Like it or not, it gives many buyers more confidence in the authenticity. Yes, it is a marketing tool.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

David -
Marino the artist, was not a forger, he was the father of two sons who were the major players in the biggest forgery ring ever busted by the FBI. The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

Correct. The old man, Angelo, was not the forger, but knew what was going on according to Operation Bullpen by Kevin Nelson. His artwork should be shunned on principle.

[grandstand69]

The one that posted a 1985 auto should take into account Ali has a million different sigs, mine is from 1993 timeframe maybe 1994, a decade apart so saying you think its not legit by comparing the two is a little premature keep in mind guys i am not a novice, I grew up around the hobby and am now taking over . If we didnt keep the photos of the event I would not have bothered the board Now, I did think about using quick opinion. I'm not sure if people know this or not but if you do get a QO and it fails, your auction has a 99% chane to get the boot before the seller has time to do the right thing and remove listing. Its great ebay is on top of the, but If you have a listing removed your seller performance rating is lowere and one or two more items listed for this purpose will have you suspended. It's a great tool but eBay does not see this as a good way to verify your material. I need to find a way to have them review without listing. I'm positive I have authentic material as all the other stuff I've sold has come back authentic with zero issues. The only reason I'm posting here is to pick the brains of some experts who may be familiar with
Marino authentic pieces. I do have a lot of photos with negatives of the event but coa is just my Nobody Name.

[drc]

To establish for buyers that a reputable outside source says the signature is genuine would be to consign one to a reputable auction house. When they offer and sell it, you would then have evidence for buyers that a well known and reputable place has offered it as authentic. If a place like Lelands offers one as authentic, that would help your cause. Even if you already had PSA/DNA letters, saying a poster from the series was once auctioned by Lelands (or whomever) is good marketing. Potential buyers like to hear stuff like that.

Of course, if they are genuine, you could consign them all too.

Duly note that I'm not an Ali signature expert, and am not offering an opinion on the signature.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by grandstand69

The one that posted a 1985 auto should take into account Ali has a million different sigs, mine is from 1993 timeframe maybe 1994, a decade apart so saying you think its not legit by comparing the two is a little premature keep in mind guys i am not a novice, I grew up around the hobby and am now taking over . If we didnt keep the photos of the event I would not have bothered the board Now, I did think about using quick opinion. I'm not sure if people know this or not but if you do get a QO and it fails, your auction has a 99% chane to get the boot before the seller has time to do the right thing and remove listing. Its great ebay is on top of the, but If you have a listing removed your seller performance rating is lowere and one or two more items listed for this purpose will have you suspended. It's a great tool but eBay does not see this as a good way to verify your material. I need to find a way to have them review without listing. I'm positive I have authentic material as all the other stuff I've sold has come back authentic with zero issues. The only reason I'm posting here is to pick the brains of some experts who may be familiar with
Marino authentic pieces. I do have a lot of photos with negatives of the event but coa is just my Nobody Name.

Hello Grandstand, this is Joe, I posted the other Ali autograph. Please re-read my post, I did not say your autograph was not good, just different than mine. I also posted that I know Ali's autograph changed over the years .

Joe

[shelly]

Angelo was a better forger when it cam to some players than his son . He did all the Namath's and Marions produced by the Marino family. He didnt go away for six months because he was there father. He went away because he shared in the forgery and money.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by shelly

Angelo was a better forger when it cam to some players than his son . He did all the Namath's and Marions produced by the Marino family. He didnt go away for six months because he was there father. He went away because he shared in the forgery and money.

Thanks for the insight. Marion who?

[grandstand69]

Travis, Hopefully this Helps

[Fuddjcal]

don't know if it's an optical illusion or what, but was that signed on the Matte or the Artwork? Anyway, not knowing a thing about Ali and his signing patterns I certainly can't tell a thing from the sig shown here.

Framed pieces are hard to phoptograph I know but I would hope you could take about 20 pics of the piece including a straight close up shot of the signature and post the best 3 or 4. Some of your photos are turned sideways blurry, and this one looks like it is signed on the Matte???

I have no opinion one way or the other, but to get the best results and input, you need to give some better pics in my opinion. The story is great and all and I know you are just trying to do the right thing.

Good luck to you grandstander. I wish you the best in selling these.

[grandstand69]

Joe, Sorry, I didn't mean anything by my comment, I just scanned and figured you posted the pics because Travis made the comment. That's what I get for trying to type fast and do other work from my phone. Again, please don't take it as a jab.

[grandstand69]

Travis, just in case you were interested I went to the storage and pulled 20 of the 300+ Ali Lithographs I mentioned. I took some pictures of the pieces I'll be selling off. You mentioned if you saw a few all together it would be easier, so I've done just that. I also have another angle of Ali Signing which clearly shows location. Keep in mind I'm bugging the experts in this field only because I don't want an item kicked off eBay which in turn hurts my selling standard rating. I know my grandfather and pops would not have left these to me to sell if something shady was behind it all. Hopefully this helps.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by grandstand69

Travis, just in case you were interested I went to the storage and pulled 20 of the 300+ Ali Lithographs I mentioned. I took some pictures of the pieces I'll be selling off. You mentioned if you saw a few all together it would be easier, so I've done just that. I also have another angle of Ali Signing which clearly shows location. Keep in mind I'm bugging the experts in this field only because I don't want an item kicked off eBay which in turn hurts my selling standard rating. I know my grandfather and pops would not have left these to me to sell if something shady was behind it all. Hopefully this helps.

thanks, it does help. you know that these are good. You don't have to prove it to anyone, except maybe ebay if they question it. but thats the problem if they want to sink it, they will and not much you can do. Doesn't mean they are no good, just that ebay wont allow them to be listed. True boxing collectors that know what they are doing will go by the signature, not the artist who made the lithograph, no matter how he is connected to past forgeries. The autograph will stand on its own. There will always be people who see the Marino family name and won't want anything associated with it, even if its legit. That's their perogative, but it means that much more for the rest of us, who want Ali's signature and not Angelo's. but also don't let the Angelo connection sink a good autograph.

however, if you put one on ebay, you cant just tell ebay that this guy or that guy checked them out. because they dont listen, they will go with what psa or whoever they have on staff thinks. thats a big problem, but its not something anyone else can solve. i think having the photo of ali signing the lithographs would help prove your case to ebay in case they tried to pull it. but otherwise it is a crabshoot.

If they are hell bent on taking them off of ebay, then they will, and it will be because someone reported it and psa or someone else they rely on agreed, (rightly or wrongly), and saying that this boxing guy or that one liked it won't help unfortunately. I wish it would help.

The good news is that good, legit Ali signatures are good legit Ali signatures. Nothing can change it and there will always be a market for it.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by travrosty

thanks, it does help. you know that these are good. You don't have to prove it to anyone, except maybe ebay if they question it. but thats the problem if they want to sink it, they will and not much you can do. Doesn't mean they are no good, just that ebay wont allow them to be listed. True boxing collectors that know what they are doing will go by the signature, not the artist who made the lithograph, no matter how he is connected to past forgeries. The autograph will stand on its own. There will always be people who see the Marino family name and won't want anything associated with it, even if its legit. That's their perogative, but it means that much more for the rest of us, who want Ali's signature and not Angelo's. but also don't let the Angelo connection sink a good autograph.

however, if you put one on ebay, you cant just tell ebay that this guy or that guy checked them out. because they dont listen, they will go with what psa or whoever they have on staff thinks. thats a big problem, but its not something anyone else can solve. i think having the photo of ali signing the lithographs would help prove your case to ebay in case they tried to pull it. but otherwise it is a crabshoot.

If they are hell bent on taking them off of ebay, then they will, and it will be because someone reported it and psa or someone else they rely on agreed, (rightly or wrongly), and saying that this boxing guy or that one liked it won't help unfortunately. I wish it would help.

The good news is that good, legit Ali signatures are good legit Ali signatures. Nothing can change it and there will always be a market for it.

If you do put it up on ebay and it gets pulled. Just wait about a month. There is going to be a new auction place for people to sell autographs like ebay. More news on this as it becomes available, but I was told tonight that they are 3-4 weeks away from launching. There will be a new 3rd party authentication company also, one that guarantee's it's opinion with a money back promise. SO not only will you get a opinion, you will get one that is backed by cold hard cash!
More details soon...

[grandstand69]

Thanks everyone for all the support. I have had one online now for a few days. From what I gather the listing already passed quick opinion. I did post several different samples from the batch to show it's not a perfect auto every single time. There are a lot of watchers, nobody has questioned me on the signature and bidding seems to be moving along. I have gambled with just 1 right now, if selling price averages out $300+ I will more than likely place in my storefront or Multi auction with buy now. If anyone is interested just do a search for Muhammad Ali "The Greatest" and maybe place a bid and try to win. It's at $105 with 2 days left and 130 watchers. Again thanks to everyone for your support

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Ringking

If you do put it up on ebay and it gets pulled. Just wait about a month. There is going to be a new auction place for people to sell autographs like ebay. More news on this as it becomes available, but I was told tonight that they are 3-4 weeks away from launching. There will be a new 3rd party authentication company also, one that guarantee's it's opinion with a money back promise. SO not only will you get a opinion, you will get one that is backed by cold hard cash!
More details soon...

Ringking I hope this is not going to be another failure.
There have been several attempts in the past to start an autograph auction site.
ebay still has the market cornered.
I sell regularly on ebay. I sell to collectors all over the world. I never did that before ebay came along. They have such a hold on the market that it is a longshot for any startup to take them on.
And about authenticators, there are new authenticators coming out of the woodwork, seemingly every other day.
Do you know what their money back guarantee will consist of? What if the new company says the item is authentic and PSA says it is not. Does that qualify for the money back guarantee?
I would only hope for total success for these ventures but the failures of the past make me really skeptical that any new auction site or new legitimate authentication company can succeed and break the stranglehold of ebay and the alphabet soup authentication companies.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Ringking I hope this is not going to be another failure.
There have been several attempts in the past to start an autograph auction site.
ebay still has the market cornered.
I sell regularly on ebay. I sell to collectors all over the world. I never did that before ebay came along. They have such a hold on the market that it is a longshot for any startup to take them on.
And about authenticators, there are new authenticators coming out of the woodwork, seemingly every other day.
Do you know what their money back guarantee will consist of? What if the new company says the item is authentic and PSA says it is not. Does that qualify for the money back guarantee?
I would only hope for total success for these ventures but the failures of the past make me really skeptical that any new auction site or new legitimate authentication company can succeed and break the stranglehold of ebay and the alphabet soup authentication companies.

Richard,
Great points. The people that have went up against Ebay, have done it wrong. There are many auction houses that are doing well on speciality websites, ie, signed books, abebooks.com for instance has over 60 signed harper lee first editions.... Why are these not on ebay? Because people are getting more on the site. Another website that sells antiques has over 700 thousand bidders. That's a lot of people. People are SICK and TIRED of dealing with ebay.

As far as authentication goes, it will be taken on with a case by case basis. (as far as PSA or JSA refunds go)

NOTHING will be done VIA scan, N-O-T-H-I-N-G!

[chaddurbin]

What happened tothe ebay auction? I had it on my watchlist but it seemed to have disappeared?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Ringking

As far as authentication goes, it will be taken on with a case by case basis. (as far as PSA or JSA refunds go)

Ringking - That does not sound like much of a guarantee to me. Not that I am a defender of the alphabet soup companies,, but a guarantee that reads money back except for blah, blah, blah does not instill confidence.
A $30,000 Babe Ruth signed ball is authenticated by this new company, sold in an auction, and then one of the alphabet guys says nope to it. What happens then? I can only speculate, but are they going to give back $30K?
I am anxious to see who the authenticators are in this new company.
I can think of only a couple of people who would possibly instill enough confidence in the collector, for this company to have an impact.
Ringking - are the authenticators in this company really the type of people to instill this type of confidence in the collector?