Muhammad Ali Autograph on Angelo Marino REAL?
 

Back in the 80's and 90's my Dad and Grandfather did a lot of memorabilia business. They commissioned a lot of the tops stars to autograph items. I myself have gone in same direction less the hiring of players. It's just not as easy now as it was back then. They hired the artist and athlete to sign the Original and 550 limited litho's. I'm going to start selling these now but need a few expierenced collector opinion. The item is of Muhammad Ali Litho/transfer titled "The Greatest". The biggest problem is it's a Angelo Marino was the artist they hired back in 1993. I know immediately this piece would be scrutenized if I didn't have proof of the signing session. I do know they made most of their cash back by selling the original painting Marino did of this piece. Fortunately I have photographs of Ali signing these litho's. Due to opersation bullpen every Marino piece is thrown out as junk. So, I ask the members to take a look at these. This piece was broken down into two limited litho's. The one I'm showing is limited to 50 and has an original mock-up of the champ with original pencil auto's of artist and Ali on all 50 pieces. The other 500 were signed in pencil by both with no mock-up.

I'm not sure if there is a question in there. :)

Nice looking piece. Speaking for myself, no matter how real, I would not want one. The Marino name taints it beyond desirability in my view. I'm sure there are collectors who would not care, however.

There is a question here. He wants to know if the autograph is real or not.
I'm not sure if it is, it is different than my signed piece. I had this signed in person in 1985 at a show in Dearborn Michigan. I'm sure ali's signature does change through the years. The white spots are reflections from ceiling lights.

Joe

Give me a nice big photo of the autograph, straight on and i will tell you if it is real or not.


nice print otherwise and to say its undesirable because of a name is crazy.

What am I missing here? The OP states his grandfather and father "hired the artist and athlete to sign the Original and 550 limited litho's." Plus he has photographs of the signing session.

:confused:

Call me crazy. I don't want any artwork in my home that came from the family behind the biggest forgery ring in history. Angelo Marino was not an unknowing bystander. Tens of thousands of victims. Tens of millions in fraud. I could never look at it without thinking of that.

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

What you could do is post one signature on eBay and get a PSA/DNA or JSA Quick Opinion. If one and/or the other approves, this gives independent evidence to buyers that the signature is genuine.

What I would do to get their opinion is post how it was from a signing for your family, with photo of Ali sigining but not mention the Marino angle. This is to get their objective opinion. When you then turn to sell them, you can mention the Marino angle.

I got a PSA/DNA Quick opinion for a Dr. Mike Marshall signed baseball and it was quick and easy. I mentioned I bought it from Lelands, with picture of the catalog listing, as I thought it would help my cause-- and got thumbs up. The process was easy, took less than 24 hours and you get the opinion in print outable form.

One can fairly argue about the merits of paying for a PSA/DNA opinion, but it definitely helped in resale of a rare autograph. Like it or not, it gives many buyers more confidence in the authenticity. Yes, it is a marketing tool.

David -
Marino the artist, was not a forger, he was the father of two sons who were the major players in the biggest forgery ring ever busted by the FBI. The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

Correct. The old man, Angelo, was not the forger, but knew what was going on according to Operation Bullpen by Kevin Nelson. His artwork should be shunned on principle.

The one that posted a 1985 auto should take into account Ali has a million different sigs, mine is from 1993 timeframe maybe 1994, a decade apart so saying you think its not legit by comparing the two is a little premature keep in mind guys i am not a novice, I grew up around the hobby and am now taking over . If we didnt keep the photos of the event I would not have bothered the board Now, I did think about using quick opinion. I'm not sure if people know this or not but if you do get a QO and it fails, your auction has a 99% chane to get the boot before the seller has time to do the right thing and remove listing. Its great ebay is on top of the, but If you have a listing removed your seller performance rating is lowere and one or two more items listed for this purpose will have you suspended. It's a great tool but eBay does not see this as a good way to verify your material. I need to find a way to have them review without listing. I'm positive I have authentic material as all the other stuff I've sold has come back authentic with zero issues. The only reason I'm posting here is to pick the brains of some experts who may be familiar with
Marino authentic pieces. I do have a lot of photos with negatives of the event but coa is just my Nobody Name.

To establish for buyers that a reputable outside source says the signature is genuine would be to consign one to a reputable auction house. When they offer and sell it, you would then have evidence for buyers that a well known and reputable place has offered it as authentic. If a place like Lelands offers one as authentic, that would help your cause. Even if you already had PSA/DNA letters, saying a poster from the series was once auctioned by Lelands (or whomever) is good marketing. Potential buyers like to hear stuff like that.

Of course, if they are genuine, you could consign them all too.

Duly note that I'm not an Ali signature expert, and am not offering an opinion on the signature.

Thanks for the input and suggestion. It's a good idea to put in a high profile auction house, however, it is a longer process and the fees paid from sale just feel like wasted money. Personally I thought I would read at least one comment from a expierenced seller telling me not to worry, you have the proof in the numerous pictures taken of Ali signing this series. Yet nobody has mentioned this, even people who say fake. As I previously mentioned, we still own over 75% of the lithos. I only have one left #d to /50 with original mock-up. The others are exactly the same #d to /500. We Only sold about 50 or so at the event that year. Initially it was a huge bust for us, then at the end of our sales day a huge Ali collector came in and purchased the original artwork for 15k. Once that happened the excess was stored away and basically forgotten about till now.

I'm thinking my best bet is to sell this or cosign it to a local ebayer who does not mind getting a warming if indeed something fails. If something fails it would be listing a Marino piece, not the signature. I know you can't list a Marino certified autograph but not sure about a Marino uncertified piece. No matter what I have a guarantee that when a uncertified piece is purchased through us and for any reason fails a major 3rd party viewing we will refund 100% of lost funds including the cost of certification. What more can anyone ask? Nobody does this unless they truly know the origin. That's my case.

Ebay's "Banned COA" list:

Autographed items with COAs and LOAs, or references to COAs and LOAs from the following people or organizations:

Coach's Corner Sports Auctions LLC

Christopher L. Morales

Donald Frangipani

Forensic Document Services

Hollywood Dreams

J. DiMaggio Co. / J. DiMaggio Company

Legends Sports Memorabilia

Nathan's Autographs / N.E. Autographs

Nicholas Burczyk

Pro Sports / Pro Sports Memorabilia

Robert Prouty

R.R.'s Sports Cards & Collectibles

SCAA / Front Page Art / Angelo Marino

Slamdunk Sportscards & Memorabilia

Sports Alley Memorabilia

Sports Management Group

Stan's Sports / Stans Sports Memorabilia

TTA Authentic (formerly STAT Authentic)

Universal Memorabilia

XMI Authentications

USA Authentics

Blank COAs and LOAs

COAs and LOAs as stand-alone items

Thanks, I do appreciate the list, I did know this already but in last reply was wondering if Signed art on a Marino piece that was NOT certified by him but rather certifed by a Private party not on list was Ok. Marino was hired to make this piece back in 1993, he of course signed them all, then gave us the Original and the 550 total pieces with 50 having an original mock-up like the one I picture. A few months or maybe 6 months later we paid Ali to do a pricate signing on all of our pieces. These were two separate events, I should have clarified that in the begining but failed. I guess I need to contact trust and safety to find out if I'm allowed to have these listed. It would be much easier to get a quick opinion however, I don't want to sell these to a company that uses eBay only to find they will have trouble.

Bull
 

Angelo was a better forger when it cam to some players than his son . He did all the Namath's and Marions produced by the Marino family. He didnt go away for six months because he was there father. He went away because he shared in the forgery and money.

As I understand it, Angelo Marino's art work was peddled by his dufus son Greg Marino. Nobody wanted these ugly messes. Wayne Bray was one of the only ones who ever wanted the Artwork of Angelo Marino. Greg would trade these to Wayne for Don Mattingly cards. What an idiot. It wasn't until Greg Marino started forging those pieces that anybody wanted them. Now, I would agree with Zipper...NOBODY wants these ugly tainted artwork from an untalented Artist like Marino.

As far as Ali, you have the most noteworthy expert collector on Boxing in Travis asking for a close up picture of the scan to give you his opinion for free. I would rather burn 7 dollar bills than to give it to PSA quick opinion, when you have a known expert in Boxing agreeing to give his opinion for nothing. My advice is to take advantage of it.

The back story is nice and all, but as a collector, you know you can't trust that AT ALL. Pictures of signings and "family stories" only go so far in this day and age.

Oh, thanks for the feedback. I didn't think Travis was speaking to me, that post came when the guy what mentioned his 1985 signature. Thanks for letting me know it was directed my way. I'll get a pic up ASAP, thanks again

Ali Close-up of Signature
 

Travis, Hopefully this Helps

don't know if it's an optical illusion or what, but was that signed on the Matte or the Artwork? Anyway, not knowing a thing about Ali and his signing patterns I certainly can't tell a thing from the sig shown here.

Framed pieces are hard to phoptograph I know but I would hope you could take about 20 pics of the piece including a straight close up shot of the signature and post the best 3 or 4. Some of your photos are turned sideways blurry, and this one looks like it is signed on the Matte???

I have no opinion one way or the other, but to get the best results and input, you need to give some better pics in my opinion. The story is great and all and I know you are just trying to do the right thing.

Good luck to you grandstander. I wish you the best in selling these.

Here is a sig from 2005 (I think)

Hello Grandstand, this is Joe, I posted the other Ali autograph. Please re-read my post, I did not say your autograph was not good, just different than mine. I also posted that I know Ali's autograph changed over the years .

Joe

Joe, Sorry, I didn't mean anything by my comment, I just scanned and figured you posted the pics because Travis made the comment. That's what I get for trying to type fast and do other work from my phone. Again, please don't take it as a jab.

Thanks for the insight. Marion who?

..

Let me try to explain, the point is I want to sell these pieces on eBay but wanted to get some input. Marino art is frowned on, I want to know if the photo we have along with other angles help prove the Ali signature is authentic. Also having confidence in a good piece what are thoughts on interest due to the history of the artist. That's it, nothing really to complicated.

I think the interest would be low. I know I would not want one even if I saw Ali sign it in person. I think there are going to be a couple of different groups of collectors. 1 - someone that would not touch anything with the Marino name on it. 2 - someone that would not touch it without an "official" authentication by PSA, Spence, Simon etc. 3 - Someone that would get it to make a cut so that it was no longer associated with Marino, but they probably would not want to pay what you'd wan't to sell for. Finally, there's the collector that buys anything but even some of those know the name of Marino and it might be a hard sell. I think you have an uphill battle on this one.

Funny you should mention cutting the autograph out. I have over 125left that I've counted with my dad saying he has about 125-150 more stored with the rest of the memorabilia he put up after moving on from the hobby. Remember, I'm talking about same exact piece but without the original mock-up and also these are #d to /500. I'm no novice to the industry and do realize the value difference if certified, that's why I started here, I'd hate to invest a bunch of cash in LOAs only to have problems selling these pieces for more then they'd fetch with photograph proof and a written guarantee of refund if problems. I also am looking at just attaching a quick opinion. Other lithos like mine generate $500-$850 on up. If we can get $275-$300 on our #d /500 I'd be ok with it. I just won't know until one hits the market. These are not common on the market due to us owning the majority, perhaps it helps. Worst case we cut and sell for a few hundred each.

I think he meant Dan Marino.
Marino doing Marino :).

I thought maybe he meant John Wayne. :D

marino
 

Zipper
The all knowing mr Simon is correct. He did Dan Marino better than Dan Marino. That was a comment from Dan Marino when he was shown the forgerys by HBO.

Are there tells now looking at them in retrospect or are they so good they are still undetectable?

If potential customers are sure/assured the signatures are genuine and Marino was just the artist for someone else's in person signing, I think they'd sell. It sounds as if the prints weren't even by Marino, but made from his painting. If so, he didn't even make these prints.

To tell you the truth, if it can be firmly established that the signatures are genuine, I don't know what is the big deal. Some collectors might even like the irony of such a piece-- a genuine signature on a forger's artwork.

Again, I'm not a Ali signature expert, so have no comment on the authenticity. I'll leave that to others.

Mr Zipper,
I can only tell you that everyone of the respected authenticators passed numerous pieces of both Marino and Namath. It has been a long time since I have seen any of his work but when I do I will email it to you and you can tell me what you think.

I live in Louisville....hometown of Ali and the Muhammad Ali center.........I've got and have had a lot of Ali stuff over the years. I'm not an Ali autograph expert though. I've seen tons of in person Ali's and gotten in person Ali's that are complete different from each other. The ravages of Parkinsons have taken it's toll on him. I have a coffee table book that his photographer/handler did quite a while back that my dad got signed in person by Ali at a book signing downtown. He signed it in four places. My dad said he just kept turning the page and signing. One of the signatures looks TOTALLY different from the others even though it was signed at the same time. So.....who knows. I'm not sure what JSA/PSA charges for COA's but if you can get a couple hundred of them certed for $30-$50 per piece and they come back legit, I can imagine you would recoup more than that per piece. If you could sell for $400 instead of $200-$250, it's a no brainer. I wouldn't discount getting them certed by PSA/JSA even though they have their issues too..................

Additional photo's
 

Travis, just in case you were interested I went to the storage and pulled 20 of the 300+ Ali Lithographs I mentioned. I took some pictures of the pieces I'll be selling off. You mentioned if you saw a few all together it would be easier, so I've done just that. I also have another angle of Ali Signing which clearly shows location. Keep in mind I'm bugging the experts in this field only because I don't want an item kicked off eBay which in turn hurts my selling standard rating. I know my grandfather and pops would not have left these to me to sell if something shady was behind it all. Hopefully this helps.

Thanks for your input. Believe me I've thought about submitting 25-40 at a time, however, my wallet keeps talking to me reminding my business side that I HAVE 300+ of these not to mention a batch of artist proofs #d /50. 300+ of the same item is a lot to move if my only outlet is ebay. I would imagine I'd flood the market fairly fast if I didn't stagger the sales over the year. I need to find a buyer who can buy 10-20 pieces at a time who have other outlets. I know with JSA COA or even PSA these should fetch a respectable amount. All his other 29x26" Lithos are $750-$2k and up. If you have any other thoughts or know a buyer who would do a trade/cash or cash deal please let me know. I thank you for your comments.

You have so many of these Lithos. If I had them I would put one on ebay and see what happens.

Joe

i would put up one with a cert and one w/o to test the water...but OP might be looking to move them in larger lots, like 10-15 to other dealers who would resell them.

I still think cosigning one or two to one (or more) of the major auction houses will help you to sell them in the future. If Lelands, Heritage, Legendary or such auction one, you'll have a much easier time convincing the general public that they're on the up and up. You then may no longer have to get the rest of the posters by certed-- the Lelands or Legendary auction catalogs writeups will help establish for the public that the posters overall are legit.

I still think getting an eBay PSA quick opinion on one is good start. Start a new account if that makes things easier.

Obviously, if the Ali signatures are legimate, the Marino angle makes the issue less than simple.

Obviously, it's nice to have the photos of Ali signing. Without those a lot people would be that much more suspicious.

What would be great too would be some sort of paper documentation or other evidence that Ali was hired to sign these, or at least sign for your dad/grandfather. I assume there was an agreement/contract, payment check.

Documentation/evidence your dad/grandfather had Ali do a signing + your photos of Ali Signing posters with the same design = good for cause. If you had a copy of the actual contract for the signing, that would be hard to beat.

This is one of the first things I tried searching for seeing I was most familiar with Bullpen then my family. All we could locate was a handwritten note on Marino letterhead saying he can't make it to a meeting. In the note he apologizes and gave 7-10 lithographs (no sports figure auto) all being the #1 in a series. I'm not sure if it was before or after this event. My grandpa was in charge of the business, pops in an Engineer who was only involved when needed and then more so towards the end when gramps just got to old. Record keeping wasn't anyone's strong suite. I believe early 90s was a handshake and
Cash transaction for everyone, including the athlete. Anyway great ideas all the way around. I'm just going to get one or two out there and see if psa or jsa is willing to authenticate a Marino piece. That's been my biggist concern from start of this post.

It's true many athletes prefered to be paid in cash. Duke Snider, to name just one baseball player, got in trouble for not reporting his cash autograph payments to the IRS. Being paid in cash may have been standard procedure back then.

The artist still sells his stuff on ebay. When some friends were looking into the family on a item that surfaced, when they were contacted (via website) they directed us to EBAY, where Angelo still sells his art (not signed). Even though he has a website, they will direct you to ebay, and when questioned about bullpen reply's were not answered...

35 items on ebay by him, and every week a "player signed" item shows up http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313

I don't think that really matters. I read a interview with one of the FBI agents that talked about Stan Sports when they were busted. Stan sports had photos with every ball player in all sports, yet the agent said they doubted a signing ever happened between players and the store.

Kinda like on ebay, when a photo shows a person signing a item with a blue marker, yet the item they are selling is signed in black, red, green or some other color....

Take the photo with a grain of salt, and when dealing with the first family of forgery's, my advise would be to avoid it at all costs... Afterall, they got into the forgery business when they realized if the "art" had the players signatures on them, they could get more...

Caveat emptor BUYER BEWARE

thanks, it does help. you know that these are good. You don't have to prove it to anyone, except maybe ebay if they question it. but thats the problem if they want to sink it, they will and not much you can do. Doesn't mean they are no good, just that ebay wont allow them to be listed. True boxing collectors that know what they are doing will go by the signature, not the artist who made the lithograph, no matter how he is connected to past forgeries. The autograph will stand on its own. There will always be people who see the Marino family name and won't want anything associated with it, even if its legit. That's their perogative, but it means that much more for the rest of us, who want Ali's signature and not Angelo's. but also don't let the Angelo connection sink a good autograph.

however, if you put one on ebay, you cant just tell ebay that this guy or that guy checked them out. because they dont listen, they will go with what psa or whoever they have on staff thinks. thats a big problem, but its not something anyone else can solve. i think having the photo of ali signing the lithographs would help prove your case to ebay in case they tried to pull it. but otherwise it is a crabshoot.

If they are hell bent on taking them off of ebay, then they will, and it will be because someone reported it and psa or someone else they rely on agreed, (rightly or wrongly), and saying that this boxing guy or that one liked it won't help unfortunately. I wish it would help.

The good news is that good, legit Ali signatures are good legit Ali signatures. Nothing can change it and there will always be a market for it.

If you do put it up on ebay and it gets pulled. Just wait about a month. There is going to be a new auction place for people to sell autographs like ebay. More news on this as it becomes available, but I was told tonight that they are 3-4 weeks away from launching. There will be a new 3rd party authentication company also, one that guarantee's it's opinion with a money back promise. SO not only will you get a opinion, you will get one that is backed by cold hard cash!
More details soon...

Thanks everyone for all the support. I have had one online now for a few days. From what I gather the listing already passed quick opinion. I did post several different samples from the batch to show it's not a perfect auto every single time. There are a lot of watchers, nobody has questioned me on the signature and bidding seems to be moving along. I have gambled with just 1 right now, if selling price averages out $300+ I will more than likely place in my storefront or Multi auction with buy now. If anyone is interested just do a search for Muhammad Ali "The Greatest" and maybe place a bid and try to win. It's at $105 with 2 days left and 130 watchers. Again thanks to everyone for your support

Ringking I hope this is not going to be another failure.
There have been several attempts in the past to start an autograph auction site.
ebay still has the market cornered.
I sell regularly on ebay. I sell to collectors all over the world. I never did that before ebay came along. They have such a hold on the market that it is a longshot for any startup to take them on.
And about authenticators, there are new authenticators coming out of the woodwork, seemingly every other day.
Do you know what their money back guarantee will consist of? What if the new company says the item is authentic and PSA says it is not. Does that qualify for the money back guarantee?
I would only hope for total success for these ventures but the failures of the past make me really skeptical that any new auction site or new legitimate authentication company can succeed and break the stranglehold of ebay and the alphabet soup authentication companies.

Richard,
Great points. The people that have went up against Ebay, have done it wrong. There are many auction houses that are doing well on speciality websites, ie, signed books, abebooks.com for instance has over 60 signed harper lee first editions.... Why are these not on ebay? Because people are getting more on the site. Another website that sells antiques has over 700 thousand bidders. That's a lot of people. People are SICK and TIRED of dealing with ebay.

As far as authentication goes, it will be taken on with a case by case basis. (as far as PSA or JSA refunds go)

NOTHING will be done VIA scan, N-O-T-H-I-N-G!