Muhammad Ali Autograph on Angelo Marino REAL?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

David -
Marino the artist, was not a forger, he was the father of two sons who were the major players in the biggest forgery ring ever busted by the FBI. The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

Correct. The old man, Angelo, was not the forger, but knew what was going on according to Operation Bullpen by Kevin Nelson. His artwork should be shunned on principle.

[grandstand69]

The one that posted a 1985 auto should take into account Ali has a million different sigs, mine is from 1993 timeframe maybe 1994, a decade apart so saying you think its not legit by comparing the two is a little premature keep in mind guys i am not a novice, I grew up around the hobby and am now taking over . If we didnt keep the photos of the event I would not have bothered the board Now, I did think about using quick opinion. I'm not sure if people know this or not but if you do get a QO and it fails, your auction has a 99% chane to get the boot before the seller has time to do the right thing and remove listing. Its great ebay is on top of the, but If you have a listing removed your seller performance rating is lowere and one or two more items listed for this purpose will have you suspended. It's a great tool but eBay does not see this as a good way to verify your material. I need to find a way to have them review without listing. I'm positive I have authentic material as all the other stuff I've sold has come back authentic with zero issues. The only reason I'm posting here is to pick the brains of some experts who may be familiar with
Marino authentic pieces. I do have a lot of photos with negatives of the event but coa is just my Nobody Name.

[drc]

To establish for buyers that a reputable outside source says the signature is genuine would be to consign one to a reputable auction house. When they offer and sell it, you would then have evidence for buyers that a well known and reputable place has offered it as authentic. If a place like Lelands offers one as authentic, that would help your cause. Even if you already had PSA/DNA letters, saying a poster from the series was once auctioned by Lelands (or whomever) is good marketing. Potential buyers like to hear stuff like that.

Of course, if they are genuine, you could consign them all too.

Duly note that I'm not an Ali signature expert, and am not offering an opinion on the signature.

[grandstand69]

Thanks for the input and suggestion. It's a good idea to put in a high profile auction house, however, it is a longer process and the fees paid from sale just feel like wasted money. Personally I thought I would read at least one comment from a expierenced seller telling me not to worry, you have the proof in the numerous pictures taken of Ali signing this series. Yet nobody has mentioned this, even people who say fake. As I previously mentioned, we still own over 75% of the lithos. I only have one left #d to /50 with original mock-up. The others are exactly the same #d to /500. We Only sold about 50 or so at the event that year. Initially it was a huge bust for us, then at the end of our sales day a huge Ali collector came in and purchased the original artwork for 15k. Once that happened the excess was stored away and basically forgotten about till now.

I'm thinking my best bet is to sell this or cosign it to a local ebayer who does not mind getting a warming if indeed something fails. If something fails it would be listing a Marino piece, not the signature. I know you can't list a Marino certified autograph but not sure about a Marino uncertified piece. No matter what I have a guarantee that when a uncertified piece is purchased through us and for any reason fails a major 3rd party viewing we will refund 100% of lost funds including the cost of certification. What more can anyone ask? Nobody does this unless they truly know the origin. That's my case.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Ebay's "Banned COA" list:

Autographed items with COAs and LOAs, or references to COAs and LOAs from the following people or organizations:

Coach's Corner Sports Auctions LLC

Christopher L. Morales

Donald Frangipani

Forensic Document Services

Hollywood Dreams

J. DiMaggio Co. / J. DiMaggio Company

Legends Sports Memorabilia

Nathan's Autographs / N.E. Autographs

Nicholas Burczyk

Pro Sports / Pro Sports Memorabilia

Robert Prouty

R.R.'s Sports Cards & Collectibles

SCAA / Front Page Art / Angelo Marino

Slamdunk Sportscards & Memorabilia

Sports Alley Memorabilia

Sports Management Group

Stan's Sports / Stans Sports Memorabilia

TTA Authentic (formerly STAT Authentic)

Universal Memorabilia

XMI Authentications

USA Authentics

Blank COAs and LOAs

COAs and LOAs as stand-alone items

[grandstand69]

Thanks, I do appreciate the list, I did know this already but in last reply was wondering if Signed art on a Marino piece that was NOT certified by him but rather certifed by a Private party not on list was Ok. Marino was hired to make this piece back in 1993, he of course signed them all, then gave us the Original and the 550 total pieces with 50 having an original mock-up like the one I picture. A few months or maybe 6 months later we paid Ali to do a pricate signing on all of our pieces. These were two separate events, I should have clarified that in the begining but failed. I guess I need to contact trust and safety to find out if I'm allowed to have these listed. It would be much easier to get a quick opinion however, I don't want to sell these to a company that uses eBay only to find they will have trouble.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by grandstand69

The one that posted a 1985 auto should take into account Ali has a million different sigs, mine is from 1993 timeframe maybe 1994, a decade apart so saying you think its not legit by comparing the two is a little premature keep in mind guys i am not a novice, I grew up around the hobby and am now taking over . If we didnt keep the photos of the event I would not have bothered the board Now, I did think about using quick opinion. I'm not sure if people know this or not but if you do get a QO and it fails, your auction has a 99% chane to get the boot before the seller has time to do the right thing and remove listing. Its great ebay is on top of the, but If you have a listing removed your seller performance rating is lowere and one or two more items listed for this purpose will have you suspended. It's a great tool but eBay does not see this as a good way to verify your material. I need to find a way to have them review without listing. I'm positive I have authentic material as all the other stuff I've sold has come back authentic with zero issues. The only reason I'm posting here is to pick the brains of some experts who may be familiar with
Marino authentic pieces. I do have a lot of photos with negatives of the event but coa is just my Nobody Name.

Hello Grandstand, this is Joe, I posted the other Ali autograph. Please re-read my post, I did not say your autograph was not good, just different than mine. I also posted that I know Ali's autograph changed over the years .

Joe

[shelly]

Angelo was a better forger when it cam to some players than his son . He did all the Namath's and Marions produced by the Marino family. He didnt go away for six months because he was there father. He went away because he shared in the forgery and money.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by shelly

Angelo was a better forger when it cam to some players than his son . He did all the Namath's and Marions produced by the Marino family. He didnt go away for six months because he was there father. He went away because he shared in the forgery and money.

Thanks for the insight. Marion who?

[drc]

..

[grandstand69]

Let me try to explain, the point is I want to sell these pieces on eBay but wanted to get some input. Marino art is frowned on, I want to know if the photo we have along with other angles help prove the Ali signature is authentic. Also having confidence in a good piece what are thoughts on interest due to the history of the artist. That's it, nothing really to complicated.

[mr2686]

I think the interest would be low. I know I would not want one even if I saw Ali sign it in person. I think there are going to be a couple of different groups of collectors. 1 - someone that would not touch anything with the Marino name on it. 2 - someone that would not touch it without an "official" authentication by PSA, Spence, Simon etc. 3 - Someone that would get it to make a cut so that it was no longer associated with Marino, but they probably would not want to pay what you'd wan't to sell for. Finally, there's the collector that buys anything but even some of those know the name of Marino and it might be a hard sell. I think you have an uphill battle on this one.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Thanks for the insight. Marion who?

I think he meant Dan Marino.
Marino doing Marino .

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I think he meant Dan Marino.
Marino doing Marino .

I thought maybe he meant John Wayne.

[shelly]

Zipper
The all knowing mr Simon is correct. He did Dan Marino better than Dan Marino. That was a comment from Dan Marino when he was shown the forgerys by HBO.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by shelly

Zipper
The all knowing mr Simon is correct. He did Dan Marino better than Dan Marino. That was a comment from Dan Marino when he was shown the forgerys by HBO.

Are there tells now looking at them in retrospect or are they so good they are still undetectable?

[grandstand69]

Travis, Hopefully this Helps

[Fuddjcal]

don't know if it's an optical illusion or what, but was that signed on the Matte or the Artwork? Anyway, not knowing a thing about Ali and his signing patterns I certainly can't tell a thing from the sig shown here.

Framed pieces are hard to phoptograph I know but I would hope you could take about 20 pics of the piece including a straight close up shot of the signature and post the best 3 or 4. Some of your photos are turned sideways blurry, and this one looks like it is signed on the Matte???

I have no opinion one way or the other, but to get the best results and input, you need to give some better pics in my opinion. The story is great and all and I know you are just trying to do the right thing.

Good luck to you grandstander. I wish you the best in selling these.

[David W]

Here is a sig from 2005 (I think)

[grandstand69]

Joe, Sorry, I didn't mean anything by my comment, I just scanned and figured you posted the pics because Travis made the comment. That's what I get for trying to type fast and do other work from my phone. Again, please don't take it as a jab.