Sir shill is at it again

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I think that's the big problem right there.

Also why they are selling for several hundred each. I can bet we all will be seeing these represented as real pieces for many years to come by many shady folks.

Probably, but that doesn't seem to be the seller's intent. Not like those 'Feldman' cards that were designed to appeal to thieves.

I agree with most here, that these are pretty amazing. I would prefer to see sets of these, not roughed-up, sold at reasonable prices - very cool.

You can almost hear Mickey thinking: "look at the crooked baseball!"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...-/120791790662

[JustinD]

I don't think it's that particular sellers intent at all, outwardly. The description clearly states they are modern. I am just saying that I know a ton of ebay users rarely read descriptions and bid based on photos. That's their own fault however, but still true. The faked wear is also very deceptive, I admit the first time I glanced at one I thought it was a real piece I was unaware of for a minute. The real problem here is on the secondary market when these buyers go to sell in the future, just like the myriad of Mantles, Cobbs and Ruths sold on Ebay as unmarked replicas what use do they have except to deceive? I just can easily see a parent, grandparent or uninformed collector shelling out a ton for one of these sold as a real piece at an antique mall or flea market. They should have VERY clear manufacture dates on every piece. The fact that they fake wear and leave off dates makes this a very suspect practice.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I know a ton of ebay users rarely read descriptions and bid based on photos. That's their own fault however, but still true. ...I just can easily see a parent, grandparent or uninformed collector shelling out a ton for one of these sold as a real piece at an antique mall or flea market.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. We can not be responsible for going around watching the people you describe to make sure they don't do stupid things with their money, nor is it possible for us to do so.

If someone pays 'a lot' on ebay, thinking it's a vintage card, I have no sympathy for them, as no one has any business spending big bucks on items they know nothing about; i.e - they should at least know whether or not a set or card was ever made.

Regarding buying these in antique stores, etc. - again, you've got no business spending big bucks for something you know nothing about; i.e-these were not created using vintage methods, and if you can hold one in your hand, then you can tell it's not vintage. If you can't tell (such as the people you describe) then buy something you have expertise in.

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

Not harsh at all, and I feel the same way. I would have absolutely no issue with these whatsoever if they were dated. Some of them are quite beautiful and well done, they would make a nice set to look at. They have had a few Cobbs that were amazing. My only qualm is without dates they are either knowingly or unknowingly aiding in deceit. I just have to put them in the same corner as the other unmarked fakes on ebay without that date.

[JustinD]

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1f2f4e9b

My problem is in the item specifics they claim that this is pre-WWII which is a blatant lie. Then there is only two references in the description that this is a modern manufactured card.

One is a redirection for legal purposes to a blog that explains the card process - "If you are unfamiliar with Helmar art cards please read the full description, thank you. You may enjoy reading our blog about art and cards at helmarblog.com ."

And then buried several paragraphs in is the following sentence - "Since each card is hand made, no two look exactly the same. This is a time consuming endeavor with the aim of sharing my love of the game, it may be two months or more before you see another one similar to this. No more than just 6 of this card will be made and sold during a 12 month period. Most likely the number will be only 3-4."

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

[glchen]

The other problem to confuse buyers is that the card is listed under the era Pre-WWII (pre-1942), with again, no date listed on the card. To me, the seller / maker is trying to be in the gray area between trying to con buyers, yet protecting themselves.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

[glchen]

Some card buyers aren't that knowledgeable, and what if it was a wife or a son/daughter buying a card for someone that they knew loved cards. They might not have a clue about this.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

They aren't "reprints"..............I agree with the rest of your post.

[D. Bergin]

I really don't think anybody bidding on these regularly thinks they are old.

I also did what I always do when a description wastes my time with a long bio. I skipped right past it to the information I was looking for.......which I assume most are conditioned to do by now on Ebay.

I've also, never ever.........ever paid attention to the "Item Specifics" Ebay is so kind to include for us in the listing. If you don't have time to read the actual description, you shouldn't have time to place a bid of more then $10 on anything.

These aren't for me and I've never bought one, but I do think they're pretty neat.

If a modern Stephen Strasburg card can sell for $16,000+........I really don't see why an attractive and obviously limited edition card using original artwork of All-Time Greats can't bring a couple hundred bucks or more to the right player collectors.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. We can not be responsible for going around watching the people you describe to make sure they don't do stupid things with their money, nor is it possible for us to do so.

If someone pays 'a lot' on ebay, thinking it's a vintage card, I have no sympathy for them, as no one has any business spending big bucks on items they know nothing about; i.e - they should at least know whether or not a set or card was ever made.

Regarding buying these in antique stores, etc. - again, you've got no business spending big bucks for something you know nothing about; i.e-these were not created using vintage methods, and if you can hold one in your hand, then you can tell it's not vintage. If you can't tell (such as the people you describe) then buy something you have expertise in.

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

I completely disagree..this isn't some shady basement dweller making these cards it's a beer company doing it...they should be putting dates on these cards...and not only are they leaving off dates, but they are also using the R319 catalog number on fantasy cards??? This company also made Cap Anson padlocks that fooled a lot of veteran memorabilia collectors. I think what they are doing is highly irresponsible.

[JustinD]

It's not even a beer company.

They just use a fictitious name to manufacture memorabilia. The address of Helmar Brewery on their website is five minutes from my house. I can assure you there is no Helmar Brewery there.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's not even a beer company.

They just use a fictitious name to manufacture memorabilia. The address of Helmar Brewery on their website is five minutes from my house. I can assure you there is no Helmar Brewery there.

It is (or was) a beer company as I have drank some, naturally being lured by the baseball theme.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

It is (or was) a beer company as I have drank some, naturally being lured by the baseball theme.

Subcontracted to a small batch brewer. Anyone can do it, just like the snacks. The only thing Helmar brews up are those labels.

I decided I wanted some ice cream so I cruised by the "headquarters" of Helmar Brewery just now out of curiosity. It's a 1930's era house in the middle of a nice neighborhood. Which I basically knew because a have a good friend that lives two blocks from there. I can say he's making a decent living out of the basement there.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I completely disagree..this isn't some shady basement dweller making these cards it's a beer company doing it...they should be putting dates on these cards...and not only are they leaving off dates, but they are also using the R319 catalog number on fantasy cards??? This company also made Cap Anson padlocks that fooled a lot of veteran memorabilia collectors. I think what they are doing is highly irresponsible.

You might disagree with me, but you're stating that you disagree with something I didn't say. I agree with you that they should identify these as not being actual old cards. I think I actually stated as much.

Do you really disagree that people have to take responsibility for their own actions? that they should be spending big bucks on items they know nothing about?

Scott <===not the same as his straw man

[glchen]

The part about people having to take responsibility for their own actions is VERY gray. This is true if the seller is very forthcoming about their actions. However, if the seller is not, like in this case where they are deliberating not dating the cards, then it is suspect. Your thought is like saying that all of the people that Bernie Madoff deceived are 100% at fault, and Madoff is not. Those investing in Madoff should've known that this guaranteed returns were impossible. There is a part where people should be responsible for themselves, but should they if they are being scammed?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You might disagree with me, but you're stating that you disagree with something I didn't say. I agree with you that they should identify these as not being actual old cards. I think I actually stated as much.

Do you really disagree that people have to take responsibility for their own actions? that they should be spending big bucks on items they know nothing about?

Scott <===not the same as his straw man

People definitely should educate themselves before plunking down big dollars for fantasy items, the problem I see is that this company not only is making these cards, but also manufacturing fantasy memorabilia items like the Anson Padlock...as you and I both know there are plenty of memorabilia items out there that are thought to be one of a kinds..when you make something to look old, don't date it or put any identifying marks on it at all then IMO you're being irresponsible. If you ran into that padlock in an antique mall you wouldn't know it wasn't old.

http://www.antique-padlocks.com/pg_s...lmar_anson~1~2

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

People definitely should educate themselves before plunking down big dollars for fantasy items, the problem I see is that this company not only is making these cards, but also manufacturing fantasy memorabilia items like the Anson Padlock...as you and I both know there are plenty of memorabilia items out there that are thought to be one of a kinds..when you make something to look old, don't date it or put any identifying marks on it at all then IMO you're being irresponsible. If you ran into that padlock in an antique mall you wouldn't know it wasn't old.

http://www.antique-padlocks.com/pg_s...lmar_anson~1~2

I agree that they are being irresponsible. Makes you wonder what their intent is, making items like the padlock you describe.