Sir shill is at it again

[JustinD]

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1f2f4e9b

My problem is in the item specifics they claim that this is pre-WWII which is a blatant lie. Then there is only two references in the description that this is a modern manufactured card.

One is a redirection for legal purposes to a blog that explains the card process - "If you are unfamiliar with Helmar art cards please read the full description, thank you. You may enjoy reading our blog about art and cards at helmarblog.com ."

And then buried several paragraphs in is the following sentence - "Since each card is hand made, no two look exactly the same. This is a time consuming endeavor with the aim of sharing my love of the game, it may be two months or more before you see another one similar to this. No more than just 6 of this card will be made and sold during a 12 month period. Most likely the number will be only 3-4."

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

[glchen]

The other problem to confuse buyers is that the card is listed under the era Pre-WWII (pre-1942), with again, no date listed on the card. To me, the seller / maker is trying to be in the gray area between trying to con buyers, yet protecting themselves.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

[glchen]

Some card buyers aren't that knowledgeable, and what if it was a wife or a son/daughter buying a card for someone that they knew loved cards. They might not have a clue about this.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by glchen

Some card buyers aren't that knowledgeable, and what if it was a wife or a son/daughter buying a card for someone that they knew loved cards. They might not have a clue about this.

They should read the description.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

They aren't "reprints"..............I agree with the rest of your post.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

They aren't "reprints"..............I agree with the rest of your post.

That's a good point.

I created a reprint set at one point, and there was kind of a heated discussion over it (but really very civil). Ultimately, I got a really great laugh out of the whole thing - ask Jay. The link below is extremely old - I quit making these sets when I nearly cut a finger off. I still have a prototype set where I included the player stats and description on the back of the card. Also have a prototype set of the ones I sent to Jay - I still get a chuckle when I run across those cards.

They were larger than the real thing, printed on much thinner rough stock (very thick watercolor paper), had an artsy stamp on the back, and had a script 'RP' on the front of each card, but in a very inconspicuous place.

http://runscott.homestead.com/OJReprints.html

[JustinD]

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair.

I think it's completely fair. The point is, if you are out of your element, don't spend like you know what you're doing. This isn't the cleanest hobby, and technology will allow it to get even dirtier.

I had a friend who thought he got a super-fantastic deal on a diamond ring for his fiancé. When he went to get it appraised ten years later, he found out it was cubic zirconium. He could have bought from a legit dealer, but he learned the hard way.

[smtjoy]

I like and own a couple Helmar and I to would purchase them over todays modern.

The one issue I do have with their listings on ebay is I do not think they should be able to list in the Pre WW2 Era section, that also goes for all the modern that gets listed their too. I wish ebay or we could do something about that.

[steve B]

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

They have another series of cards that's actually inserted into the chip or caramel corn bags too.

So, Legit brewery. legit snack food brand. Issuer of a more traditional card series.......Figure those are legit too, unless you discount stuff like 1960+61 Fleer, 72 rold gold, Shakeys Pizza, 63 Bazooka all time greats.....

The prices of the ebay stuff seem high, higherthan I'd pay for most. But they are limited edition art items. What will happen with prices in the future is a guess, the sold out stuff has settled at more realistic prices, and they're no worse than any of the stuff I've seen over the last 30 years that was supposed to be "good" - And probably better than most.

Steve B

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by steve B

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

[D. Bergin]

I really don't think anybody bidding on these regularly thinks they are old.

I also did what I always do when a description wastes my time with a long bio. I skipped right past it to the information I was looking for.......which I assume most are conditioned to do by now on Ebay.

I've also, never ever.........ever paid attention to the "Item Specifics" Ebay is so kind to include for us in the listing. If you don't have time to read the actual description, you shouldn't have time to place a bid of more then $10 on anything.

These aren't for me and I've never bought one, but I do think they're pretty neat.

If a modern Stephen Strasburg card can sell for $16,000+........I really don't see why an attractive and obviously limited edition card using original artwork of All-Time Greats can't bring a couple hundred bucks or more to the right player collectors.