Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[Abravefan11]

Other T206 players were from the deep south, not in the numbers of the Northern and Midwest players, but they are there. Nap Rucker was born and played his minor league career in Georgia and he has two cards in the set.

I think speculating about JJ being snubbed because of bias or any other reason is over complicating a simple explanation. As I've stated before he could not be included in the T206 set because of when and where he played in relation to when and where they chose their images for the set. And without a T206 image he would not be included in a large number of other sets.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with Tim. If Jax and Alexander truly were being snubbed, they would not have been included in as many sets as they were. Much more likely their start dates relative to T206.

[tedzan]

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Tell me Tim.....is this just a coincidence, or were there no talented BB players from the deep South in that era ?
Or, could this be a case of deliberate predjudice towards BB players from the deep South by the team owners,
sports media, and perhaps the BB card companies (ACC and ATC) ?

Furthermore, you have stated that NO new players were added to the set. The 460 series was printed and issued
in the Winter of 1910 thru to the Spring of 1911. The following subjects are all new additions to the T206 set in
this last series......

Devore
Duffy
Frill
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
Latham
Needham
Payne
Pfeffer
Wheat

Obviously, Alexander didn't quite make it into the T206 set....but, you have to come up with some better stuff to
disuade me of my feelings that Joe Jackson was deliberately left out of all the subsequent Tobacco card sets.

Finally, if you guys choose not to accept the "predjudice" factor in these situations, then explain why the four T206
Ty Cobb cards (which were issued with many tobacco backs), were not issued with the Brown or Red HINDU backs ?

I think there is a connection here on the Cobb/HINDU enigma, as it continued in the T205 issue & T201 (MECCA) issue.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Your number of four is not accurate and I'll cite Gabby Street as one example of a player you left off your list. With that said I'm not going to deny southern bias nor am I going to discuss it in relation to Joe Jackson not being included in the T206 set. I have explained in detail the T206 timeline and how ATC included southern league players and Joe does not fit into those parameters.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Furthermore, you have stated that NO new players were added to the set. The 460 series was printed and issued
in the Winter of 1910 thru to the Spring of 1911. The following subjects are all new additions to the T206 set in
this last series......

Devore
Duffy
Frill
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
Latham
Needham
Payne
Pfeffer
Wheat

Your reference to my stating there were no new players added is inaccurate. I asked the following question:

"Of those sets that use the same images as the T206 set, was a new player included that didn't first appear in T206?"

Originally Posted by tedzan

Obviously, Alexander didn't quite make it into the T206 set....but, you have to come up with some better stuff to
disuade me of my feelings that Joe Jackson was deliberately left out of all the subsequent Tobacco card sets.

Ted even though I have great respect for your research I don't feel I need to dissuade you. I have given you specific facts in relation to the sets in question and why Joe was not included in them. Facts that so far you or anyone else haven't refuted.

With that said I will gladly bow out of this discussion as I feel I've stated my case and let you and others continue on with this topic where ever it may lead.

[Bridwell]

Gabby Street was from Alabama. I'm thinking there were a few others, Ted. Perhaps others can chime in.

Ron

[nolemmings]

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Actually, there are more than that, and the fact remains that there simply were not that many MLB players from the deep south during that time.

Some others from the South included in T206: Dolly Stark and Dode Criss (Mississippi); Syd Smith (SC); Jimmy Lavender (GA) and Gabby Street (Ala).

[Bridwell]

Here's a few more T206 guys that I don't think were mentioned yet:

Boss Schmidt (Arkansas), Clyde Milan (TN), Bill Burns (TX), Ed Karger (TX), and Chief Wilson (TX).

Ron R

[tedzan]

1st, I should've defined what was considered the "deep South", as it was referred to back then....it included Alabama,
Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina. There was lingering bitterness from the Civil War days by North-
erners towards residents of these states.

Look guys, I'm not making-up this Northern "predjudice" stuff. It is well documented; and, one of the more informative
books on this is a biography of Connie Mack. I highly recommend it for those of you that enjoy reading in-depth stories
about the various ballplayers in the T206 set....and, Joe Jackson's early days with the A's.

And, thanks for coming up with a few more players, I was recalling research that I did years ago. Although, I'm surprised
I forgot Stark and Street. Anyhow, adding your new inputs....Criss, Lavender, S. Smith, Stark, and Street....we have nine
ballplayers from the deep South. This still just represents only 2.3 % of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

You can dismiss this predjudice as a non-factor, that's your prerogative. But, it is what it is....and, I think it even played
a role in the New York based ATC's decision to not include certain ballplayers from the deep South in their BB card sets.
Of which, Shoeless Joe was the most notable. Was this predjudice also a factor when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banished
Shoeless Joe from baseball ?


From a US Air Force veteran, I wish you all a solemn Memorial Day.

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, thanks for coming up with a few more players, I was recalling research that I did years ago. Although, I'm surprised
I forgot Stark and Street. Anyhow, adding your new inputs....Criss, Lavender, S. Smith, Stark, and Street....we have nine
ballplayers from the deep South. This still just represents only 2.3 % of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.


TED Z

First and foremost Ted thank you for your service.

Here's the list I have for your deep south players:

Alabama - Street and Fritz

Georgia - Cobb, Rucker, Foster, Lavender, and McElveen.

Louisiana - Oaks

Mississippi - Criss and Stark

South Carolina - Coles and S. Smith

Of the players in the T206 set I have recorded the birth places of 341. Of those 341, 229 were born in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois or Massachusetts.

That leaves 112 for the rest of the country of which the 12 above deep south players make up 10%

As a comparison

Georgia - 5

Kansas - 8
Kentucky - 8
Maryland - 8
New Jersey -7
Iowa - 7
Maine - 6
Texas - 6
Virginia - 5
Minnesota - 4
Nebraska - 3
Tennessee - 3
Oregon - 2
Washington - 2
West Virginia - 2
Vermont - 2
New Hampshire - 1
Rhode Island - 1
South Dakota - 1

[tbob]

Boss Schmidt was from Coal Hill, Arkansas.
Ooops, sorry Ron, you already had him listed. There was a flood of talent from Arkansas in the major leagues but it didn't begin until the 30's and 40's with Hall of Famers Travis Jackson, Arky Vaughn, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Didn't Hindu produce a number of Southern Leaguers? Does that rebut any notion of prejudice?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Didn't Hindu produce a number of Southern Leaguers? Does that rebut any notion of prejudice?

I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to ask this question and Peter thank you for doing it.

In a set of cards containing just under 400 players, 48 are in their own subgroup known as "Southern Leaguers." Yet somehow this company had a southern bias. There is IMO absolutely no evidence there was bias and at this point it's speculation with no facts to back it up.

And to preempt any response on Cobb. He was one of the most prolific cards in the T206 set. He was a super print, had four front images, and his own back brand (arguably T206.) Not being printed at one factory does not automatically mean bias. I personally would need proof of bias and not just lack of any other explanation before I made that type of accusation.