Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[tedzan]

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Tell me Tim.....is this just a coincidence, or were there no talented BB players from the deep South in that era ?
Or, could this be a case of deliberate predjudice towards BB players from the deep South by the team owners,
sports media, and perhaps the BB card companies (ACC and ATC) ?

Furthermore, you have stated that NO new players were added to the set. The 460 series was printed and issued
in the Winter of 1910 thru to the Spring of 1911. The following subjects are all new additions to the T206 set in
this last series......

Devore
Duffy
Frill
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
Latham
Needham
Payne
Pfeffer
Wheat

Obviously, Alexander didn't quite make it into the T206 set....but, you have to come up with some better stuff to
disuade me of my feelings that Joe Jackson was deliberately left out of all the subsequent Tobacco card sets.

Finally, if you guys choose not to accept the "predjudice" factor in these situations, then explain why the four T206
Ty Cobb cards (which were issued with many tobacco backs), were not issued with the Brown or Red HINDU backs ?

I think there is a connection here on the Cobb/HINDU enigma, as it continued in the T205 issue & T201 (MECCA) issue.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Your number of four is not accurate and I'll cite Gabby Street as one example of a player you left off your list. With that said I'm not going to deny southern bias nor am I going to discuss it in relation to Joe Jackson not being included in the T206 set. I have explained in detail the T206 timeline and how ATC included southern league players and Joe does not fit into those parameters.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Furthermore, you have stated that NO new players were added to the set. The 460 series was printed and issued
in the Winter of 1910 thru to the Spring of 1911. The following subjects are all new additions to the T206 set in
this last series......

Devore
Duffy
Frill
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
Latham
Needham
Payne
Pfeffer
Wheat

Your reference to my stating there were no new players added is inaccurate. I asked the following question:

"Of those sets that use the same images as the T206 set, was a new player included that didn't first appear in T206?"

Originally Posted by tedzan

Obviously, Alexander didn't quite make it into the T206 set....but, you have to come up with some better stuff to
disuade me of my feelings that Joe Jackson was deliberately left out of all the subsequent Tobacco card sets.

Ted even though I have great respect for your research I don't feel I need to dissuade you. I have given you specific facts in relation to the sets in question and why Joe was not included in them. Facts that so far you or anyone else haven't refuted.

With that said I will gladly bow out of this discussion as I feel I've stated my case and let you and others continue on with this topic where ever it may lead.

[Bridwell]

Gabby Street was from Alabama. I'm thinking there were a few others, Ted. Perhaps others can chime in.

Ron

[nolemmings]

Sorry to say this, but you are grasping at straws with your one example, Nap Rucker. Actually, there are only 4
players from the deep South in the entire set......

Ty Cobb..........Georgia
Pryor McElveen.....Georgia
Rebel Oakes.....Louisiana
Nap Rucker......Georgia

These 4 represent only 1% of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

Actually, there are more than that, and the fact remains that there simply were not that many MLB players from the deep south during that time.

Some others from the South included in T206: Dolly Stark and Dode Criss (Mississippi); Syd Smith (SC); Jimmy Lavender (GA) and Gabby Street (Ala).

[Bridwell]

Here's a few more T206 guys that I don't think were mentioned yet:

Boss Schmidt (Arkansas), Clyde Milan (TN), Bill Burns (TX), Ed Karger (TX), and Chief Wilson (TX).

Ron R

[tedzan]

1st, I should've defined what was considered the "deep South", as it was referred to back then....it included Alabama,
Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina. There was lingering bitterness from the Civil War days by North-
erners towards residents of these states.

Look guys, I'm not making-up this Northern "predjudice" stuff. It is well documented; and, one of the more informative
books on this is a biography of Connie Mack. I highly recommend it for those of you that enjoy reading in-depth stories
about the various ballplayers in the T206 set....and, Joe Jackson's early days with the A's.

And, thanks for coming up with a few more players, I was recalling research that I did years ago. Although, I'm surprised
I forgot Stark and Street. Anyhow, adding your new inputs....Criss, Lavender, S. Smith, Stark, and Street....we have nine
ballplayers from the deep South. This still just represents only 2.3 % of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.

You can dismiss this predjudice as a non-factor, that's your prerogative. But, it is what it is....and, I think it even played
a role in the New York based ATC's decision to not include certain ballplayers from the deep South in their BB card sets.
Of which, Shoeless Joe was the most notable. Was this predjudice also a factor when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banished
Shoeless Joe from baseball ?


From a US Air Force veteran, I wish you all a solemn Memorial Day.

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, thanks for coming up with a few more players, I was recalling research that I did years ago. Although, I'm surprised
I forgot Stark and Street. Anyhow, adding your new inputs....Criss, Lavender, S. Smith, Stark, and Street....we have nine
ballplayers from the deep South. This still just represents only 2.3 % of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set.


TED Z

First and foremost Ted thank you for your service.

Here's the list I have for your deep south players:

Alabama - Street and Fritz

Georgia - Cobb, Rucker, Foster, Lavender, and McElveen.

Louisiana - Oaks

Mississippi - Criss and Stark

South Carolina - Coles and S. Smith

Of the players in the T206 set I have recorded the birth places of 341. Of those 341, 229 were born in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois or Massachusetts.

That leaves 112 for the rest of the country of which the 12 above deep south players make up 10%

As a comparison

Georgia - 5

Kansas - 8
Kentucky - 8
Maryland - 8
New Jersey -7
Iowa - 7
Maine - 6
Texas - 6
Virginia - 5
Minnesota - 4
Nebraska - 3
Tennessee - 3
Oregon - 2
Washington - 2
West Virginia - 2
Vermont - 2
New Hampshire - 1
Rhode Island - 1
South Dakota - 1

[tedzan]

I am trying to follow your analysis, but I find it confusing. First of all, as you know, the T206 set comprises of 389 different
players. So, something isn't adding up with your numbers, please clarify. When we consider all 389, my math shows that only
11 (added Coles & Fritz) are from what was referred to as the deep South in the T206 era. That still is only 2.8 % of the set.

Incidently, there are two Ed Foster's....one from Chicago and the other from Georgia....which one is in the T206 set ?

And, I'm proud to say that Pennsylvania leads all the other states as the birthplace of the 389 guys in the T206 set.


TED Z

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,

I don't think anybody has listed all 389 T206 subjects by birth state so we may have incomplete information. Tim's research shows that a lot of states had poor representation in the T206 set.

Almost all the major league franchises were in the NE and Midwest U.S. So it makes sense that most players are from those states. In that way, the owner 'magnates' were biased geographically. From my research, 1910 era players mercilessly made fun of players from the Deep South, but also rubes from farm towns, college boys, players who looked different, and players from other parts of the U.S. They were fighting to keep their jobs, and win games with mental warfare. Was there a bias against the Deep South? Yes.

Ron

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, there are two Ed Foster's....one from Chicago and the other from Georgia....which one is in the T206 set ?

TED Z

T206 Ed Foster - Charleston

Ted - Sorry my explanations are confusing. Feel free to call me anytime.

I don't have recorded the birth places of all 389 players in the T206 set. To date I have 341 and used the information I do have, though incomplete, for my comparison.

To compare the deep south states to the following would certainly seem like there was a bias.

Pennsylvania - 67
Ohio - 48
New York - 43
Illinois - 27

But when you take those states out and compare the deep south to other parts of the country they have similar numbers that would show that the representation in the T206 set is not proof of bias.

Was there bias against the south? Surely there was, but it isn't reflected in the number of representatives in the T206 set. The 12 players in the "deep south" group have 17 different cards in the set.

[tbob]

Boss Schmidt was from Coal Hill, Arkansas.
Ooops, sorry Ron, you already had him listed. There was a flood of talent from Arkansas in the major leagues but it didn't begin until the 30's and 40's with Hall of Famers Travis Jackson, Arky Vaughn, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Didn't Hindu produce a number of Southern Leaguers? Does that rebut any notion of prejudice?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Didn't Hindu produce a number of Southern Leaguers? Does that rebut any notion of prejudice?

I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to ask this question and Peter thank you for doing it.

In a set of cards containing just under 400 players, 48 are in their own subgroup known as "Southern Leaguers." Yet somehow this company had a southern bias. There is IMO absolutely no evidence there was bias and at this point it's speculation with no facts to back it up.

And to preempt any response on Cobb. He was one of the most prolific cards in the T206 set. He was a super print, had four front images, and his own back brand (arguably T206.) Not being printed at one factory does not automatically mean bias. I personally would need proof of bias and not just lack of any other explanation before I made that type of accusation.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" Boss Schmidt was from Coal Hill, Arkansas.
Ooops, sorry Ron, you already had him listed. There was a flood of talent from Arkansas in the major leagues but it
didn't begin until the 30's and 40's with Hall of Famers Travis Jackson, Arky Vaughn, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, etc. "

Since, Arkansas was not considered the deep South back in the T206 era, I would of expected more BB players from
Arkansas in the T206 set. All this changed after WWI, where the early predjudices by some of the ball club owners
began to vanish. And, as you noted, this new "Southern wave" in BB began in the 1920's and 1930's.

By the way, don't forget my favorite Arkansan (besides Bill Dickey)....Johnny Sain.

TED Z

[tedzan]

OK, you naysayers, if there is no hint of prejudice against Cobb at the Rochester plant, then I want to know WHY
his T205 and T206 cards were not inserted in cigarette packs produced at this Factory #649 plant ?

When, as we know, the following regarding T206 cards of Cobb......

Green Portrait..........8 different backs
Bat on Shoulder.......8 different backs
Bat off Shoulder.....16 different backs
Red Portrait...........22 different backs......ALC's "signature picture"

Furthermore, every major T206 star in the 150 series is found with the Brown HINDU back, and most major stars
in the 460 series are found with Red HINDU backs.

Perhaps, you do not find this strange, but I find this to be very, very strange. So, all I am simply asking.....does
anyone here have an explanation why none of the four T206 Cobb's, or the T205 Cobb were printed with HINDU
backs ?


TED Z