Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[tedzan]

I am trying to follow your analysis, but I find it confusing. First of all, as you know, the T206 set comprises of 389 different
players. So, something isn't adding up with your numbers, please clarify. When we consider all 389, my math shows that only
11 (added Coles & Fritz) are from what was referred to as the deep South in the T206 era. That still is only 2.8 % of the set.

Incidently, there are two Ed Foster's....one from Chicago and the other from Georgia....which one is in the T206 set ?

And, I'm proud to say that Pennsylvania leads all the other states as the birthplace of the 389 guys in the T206 set.


TED Z

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,

I don't think anybody has listed all 389 T206 subjects by birth state so we may have incomplete information. Tim's research shows that a lot of states had poor representation in the T206 set.

Almost all the major league franchises were in the NE and Midwest U.S. So it makes sense that most players are from those states. In that way, the owner 'magnates' were biased geographically. From my research, 1910 era players mercilessly made fun of players from the Deep South, but also rubes from farm towns, college boys, players who looked different, and players from other parts of the U.S. They were fighting to keep their jobs, and win games with mental warfare. Was there a bias against the Deep South? Yes.

Ron

[tedzan]

Some years back, I researched all 389 (or is it 399) players in the T206 set. I am not about to type in all this info.
It looks like Tim has done the same. So, you are left to trust our data or check it out yourself.

But, I have to differ with you regarding your....
"Almost all the major league franchises were in the NE and Midwest U.S. So it makes sense that most players are
from those states."


Back then, and over the years, there have been some great players from Texas and California. In California's case,
it is very understandable, because of the PCL. Now, let's get back to Shoeless Joe. From the Connie Mack biography,
that I alluded to in an earlier post, I'm paraphrasing some quotes with respect to Joe......

As a teenager, Joe was a ditch digger at the mills and developed powerful muscles. This translated into his powerful
hits and the ability to throw a BB about 400 feet.

According to Connie Mack, the sound of the crack of the bat when Joe hit the ball was something he had never heard
of before.

Connie Mack once said that Joe hit the longest HR that he ever saw, it traveled over 500 feet as it cleared the roof of
the stadium.

Connie Mack, who mainly recruited Collegians (Mack always contended that College coaching was better than any Minor
Laegue coaching), had a lot of hope for Joe with the A's. However, Joe wouldn't "toe-the-line" with the A's policies and
he hated being in the big city of Philly.


TED Z

[tedzan]

American Litho. (ALC) did not need to have....."new artwork commissioned " (to use your words).....regarding Joe Jax.
For, as we all know they had printed him in their 1910 OLD MILL (series 8) set.

Therefore, it was a simple matter to re-use this image, and re-do his uniform and caption to reflect Cleveland in their
subsequent T-card issues (T213, T214, T215).

Indeed, ALC modified their T206 1909 images to produce subsequent cards in 1910 and 1911 for the following subjects......


G. Brown
M. Brown
Chance
Chase
Cobb
Dahlen
Demmitt
Elberfeld
Evers
Kleinow
Lundgren
O'Hara
F. Smith


TED Z

[Matt]

Originally Posted by tedzan

American Litho. (ALC) did not need to have....."new artwork commissioned " (to use your words).....regarding Joe Jax.
For, as we all know they had printed him in their 1910 OLD MILL (series 8) set.

Therefore, it was a simple matter to re-use this image, and re-do his uniform and caption to reflect Cleveland in their
subsequent T-card issues (T213, T214, T215).

Indeed, ALC modified their T206 1909 images to produce subsequent cards in 1910 and 1911 for the following subjects......

Ted this is getting a bit redundant - Tim above already explained:

"American Litho did not repeat the T210 images in the other sets. The other sets repeated the T206 images including T210. All of the sets that utilized the T206 images will not include Joe Jackson. "

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps a poll would be of interest here?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps a poll would be of interest here?

Peter by all means if you think it would be beneficial or add something. I don't see how if the results were 50/50 they would change the facts.

It really isn't a complicated reason JJ was excluded from T206 and the T brand sets that use the same images.

Any claim of snubbing or prejudice against him in relation to the T206 set is a red herring.

[tedzan]

Tim......two more things regarding the T206 Joe Jax enigma......then we move on to another ATC mystery.

1st...."T206 Ed Foster - Charleston"....is his team. Where was Foster born? There were two Ed Foster's in BB during that era.
One is Edward Cunningham Foster (Chicago) and the other is Eddy Lee Foster (Alabama) ?

2nd......Your contention that all subsequent ATC sets are "slaved" to the T206 images may not be totally correct. American
Litho. was printing the 350-only series in the Spring of 1910. Simultaneously, they were printing the T210's. Recall, that 14
of the Southern Leaguer's are "350-only" subjects. So, it isn't certain that these images were T206's before they were T210's.
Three of these (off the top of my head) are Hart, Smith (Shrev.) and Thebo. So, I would not be so sure that all images were
first T206's....because from a printing standpoint the colorless T210 images were first thru the press.


For all you skeptics that have responded here that do not buy a bias against Joe Jax, then let's hear your explanation on this
mystery. The HINDU brand was mainly marketed in New York state and New England states. It's cigarette factory (#649) was
the Kimball plant in Rochester, NY.
Approx. 180-T206's exist with the HINDU back, including all the major stars, except for Ty Cobb. Furthermore, the SWEET CAP-
ORAL 150, Fac. 649 (overprint) series includes all the major stars, except for Ty Cobb. Do you dig where I'm heading with this ?

Well, this intrigue gets better....the T205 Cobb exists with 6 (or 7) backs, except for HINDU. And finally, The T201 set does not
portray Cobb in full picture on the front. This MECCA set relegates Cobb to the dinky picture on the back of Crawford. Oh Yes....
MECCA cigarettes were produced at Factory #649, just like the above brands.

Gentleman, are these clear examples of excluding Cobb due to Northern predjudice......OR WHAT ?

If you think not, I can't wait to hear your rationalizations on this mystery ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, there are two Ed Foster's....one from Chicago and the other from Georgia....which one is in the T206 set ?

TED Z

T206 Ed Foster - Charleston

Ted - Sorry my explanations are confusing. Feel free to call me anytime.

I don't have recorded the birth places of all 389 players in the T206 set. To date I have 341 and used the information I do have, though incomplete, for my comparison.

To compare the deep south states to the following would certainly seem like there was a bias.

Pennsylvania - 67
Ohio - 48
New York - 43
Illinois - 27

But when you take those states out and compare the deep south to other parts of the country they have similar numbers that would show that the representation in the T206 set is not proof of bias.

Was there bias against the south? Surely there was, but it isn't reflected in the number of representatives in the T206 set. The 12 players in the "deep south" group have 17 different cards in the set.

[Matt]

Tim - I agree with your posts here - I don't see Joe Jax being an intentional snub from T206 and therefore not from any of the later sets that re-used the T206 artwork - no player had new artwork commissioned for them for the later issues.