Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me.

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

Ebay was the first one listed. Surely he wasn't accusing ebay of doctoring cards. I think he's just saying, in the worlds of the old Converse commercial, they're everywhere. But let's see if he comes back and clarifies.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

So Heritage has "in-house card doctors" but they don't alter cards? That one, I don't follow?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So Heritage has "in-house card doctors" but they don't alter cards? That one, I don't follow?

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

I don't think they actually allow it anymore than they allow trimmed, recolored, creased removed, rebuilt cards to pass grading. If the job is done well enough or the work done is not actually detectable, they might not catch it or maybe it is that they catch it almost 100% of time except for submitters who have those privileges.

Unless the grading companies are complicit in that they see the work done and look the other way and slap a number on the card, responsibility is with the submitter (assuming he/she did the work) or the person submitting the card for the person who did the work. Not the cops' fault is they do not stop a robbery in progress.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I don't think they actually allow it anymore than they allow trimmed, recolored, creased removed, rebuilt cards to pass grading. If the job is done well enough or the work done is not actually detectable, they might not catch it or maybe it is that they catch it almost 100% of time except for submitters who have those privileges.

Unless the grading companies are complicit in that they see the work done and look the other way and slap a number on the card, responsibility is with the submitter (assuming he/she did the work) or the person submitting the card for the person who did the work. Not the cops' fault is they do not stop a robbery in progress.

I don't know how often they detect trimming, recoloring, crease removals, or rebuilt corners, but I can provide insight into how often I've had cards rejected for cleaning because that number is zero. I've cleaned thousands of cards. I've literally never had a single card ever once rejected by any grading company for me having cleaned it. Not once. That said, I also don't use anything that would damage the card or leave behind some sort of residue. Surely there are people out there who are in fact damaging cards because they don't know what they're doing and I'm sure the grading companies are flagging those with at least some degree of accuracy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They clean cards and remove stains. They don't, at least to my knowledge, trim, recolor, or rebuild corners or anything like that.

We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox.

That's not an answer to my question. Why are you calling them "card doctors" if you don't think they're doctoring cards?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's not an answer to my question. Why are you calling them "card doctors" if you don't think they're doctoring cards?

Because I'm not equating "card doctoring" with "altering cards". I think you can "doctor" a card in both acceptable and unacceptable manners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because I'm not equating "card doctoring" with "altering cards". I think you can "doctor" a card in both acceptable and unacceptable manners.

Then why did you even mention it in your post? It was obviously meant to be provocative. Plus, you surely know the negative connotation of the term card doctor. So you must consider yourself a card doctor if you're doing acceptable things to cards?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because I'm not equating "card doctoring" with "altering cards". I think you can "doctor" a card in both acceptable and unacceptable manners.

So I guess the word “notorious” is ambiguous as well?


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