Racism and baseball cards

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

[Brian]

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

Except that if you look at the other fighters, they are frequently identified via race or ethnicity as well in the card bios. Ethnic rivalry was great for the box office. It wasn't a denigrating call-out to identify a fighter by race or religion or nationality, it was actually good business. Jewish fight fans, for example, were rabid and numerous, and they would actively support their co-religionists. There was even some attention paid to the fact that Jack Dempsey had a Jewish great-great-grandmother (he mentions it in one of his autobiographies), and Max Baer wore the Star of David on his trunks, ostensibly in honor of a Jewish grandfather but mostly because it was really good business to be seen as a Jewish heavyweight. Italian-American fighter Salvatore Mandala changed his ring name to Sammy Mandell to sound more Jewish. Jimmy McLarnin was nicknamed "Jew Killer" because he KOd a number of HOF Jewish fighters. He got KTFO'd by my cousin, Ray Miller, another Jewish fighter.



Ray in turn lost the battle of Chicago Jewish lightweights to HOFer (and war hero) Barney Ross:

[Brian]

Awesome story about your cousin, Adam, and nice anti-racist memorabilia!

Valid points about the cards, although I have not seen any other hyphenated cards, like "Roman Catholic-American", "Muslim-American," or "Protestant-American." I have also seen Jewish-American. But what confounded/amused me was to refer to someone as "Hebrew". Maybe it was a sign of the times, and maybe that is how we were referred to, but I thought that language was last used by the Pharaohs! I had thought that its usage in the early part of the century leaned toward the derogatory (but maybe it's just me).

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Awesome story about your cousin, Adam, and nice anti-racist memorabilia!

Valid points about the cards, although I have not seen any other hyphenated cards, like "Roman Catholic-American", "Muslim-American," or "Protestant-American." I have also seen Jewish-American. But what confounded/amused me was to refer to someone as "Hebrew". Maybe it was a sign of the times, and maybe that is how we were referred to, but I thought that language was last used by the Pharaohs! I had thought that its usage in the early part of the century leaned toward the derogatory (but maybe it's just me).

There were many cards that identified the fighters with hyphenates. Here is "Irish-American" Tommy Loughran:



The only religious call-outs were the Hebrews. There is also this Exhibit wrestling card from the 1930s:



It is the only card in that series that uses a religious label.

Different times and different sensitivities.

Seems to me that we've had a gradual move towards the groups in question setting their own terms of reference, and resetting them over time. Check the cards of the black fighters: "colored" was the phrase of the day. "Hebrew" was one of the polite terms used at the time. Abe Attell was nicknamed "The Little Hebrew". There were a lot more derogatory phrases available to describe "Hebrew" fighters, same as there were for "colored" fighters. It's all contextual. I mean, when I grew up "Negro" was archaic but not impolite--your grandma would use it--but the word of the times was "black". That's what I was taught to use. That held true for about 25-30 years or so. In Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing (1989), the characters didn't tell each other to "stay African-American", they told each other to "stay black"; that was the term in 1989. About 15-20 years ago, the term "African-American" picked up and my "black" usage was considered archaic and even somewhat demeaning. I switched it up. Recently, it went back to "black" because African-American was too USA centric, and I was told by my Gen Z kid to switch it up again. I am sure Jackie Robinson would have been just fine to be called a "Negro" in 1947; lord knows he was called a lot of other things. In 1977, it was different, and it woud have been mildly offensive. Not punch in the mouth offensive, but more like drunk uncle at Thanksgiving offensive.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There were many cards that identified the fighters with hyphenates. Here is "Irish-American" Tommy Loughran:



The only religious call-outs were the Hebrews. There is also this Exhibit wrestling card from the 1930s:



It is the only card in that series that uses a religious label.

Different times and different sensitivities.

Seems to me that we've had a gradual move towards the groups in question setting their own terms of reference, and resetting them over time. Check the cards of the black fighters: "colored" was the phrase of the day. "Hebrew" was one of the polite terms used at the time. Abe Attell was nicknamed "The Little Hebrew". There were a lot more derogatory phrases available to describe "Hebrew" fighters, same as there were for "colored" fighters. It's all contextual. I mean, when I grew up "Negro" was archaic but not impolite--your grandma would use it--but the word of the times was "black". That's what I was taught to use. That held true for about 25-30 years or so. In Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing (1989), the characters didn't tell each other to "stay African-American", they told each other to "stay black"; that was the term in 1989. About 15-20 years ago, the term "African-American" picked up and my "black" usage was considered archaic and even somewhat demeaning. I switched it up. Recently, it went back to "black" because African-American was too USA centric, and I was told by my Gen Z kid to switch it up again. I am sure Jackie Robinson would have been just fine to be called a "Negro" in 1947; lord knows he was called a lot of other things. In 1977, it was different, and it woud have been mildly offensive. Not punch in the mouth offensive, but more like drunk uncle at Thanksgiving offensive.

So true....

and a few religious circa 1940s, Mel Ott, blotters ...

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Except that if you look at the other fighters, they are frequently identified via race or ethnicity as well in the card bios. Ethnic rivalry was great for the box office. It wasn't a denigrating call-out to identify a fighter by race or religion or nationality, it was actually good business. Jewish fight fans, for example, were rabid and numerous, and they would actively support their co-religionists. There was even some attention paid to the fact that Jack Dempsey had a Jewish great-great-grandmother (he mentions it in one of his autobiographies), and Max Baer wore the Star of David on his trunks, ostensibly in honor of a Jewish grandfather but mostly because it was really good business to be seen as a Jewish heavyweight. Italian-American fighter Salvatore Mandala changed his ring name to Sammy Mandell to sound more Jewish. Jimmy McLarnin was nicknamed "Jew Killer" because he KOd a number of HOF Jewish fighters. He got KTFO'd by my cousin, Ray Miller, another Jewish fighter.



Ray in turn lost the battle of Chicago Jewish lightweights to HOFer (and war hero) Barney Ross:

While I wasn't a true Chicagoan (I didn't live in the city) but I spent a great deal of time there and worked on the north side for several years, I had never heard of Sparta Stadium. I had to look it up and didn't realize that there was a stadium at this location.

This was a pretty cool little sports "nugget" of history. Next time I am that way I need to pay more attention and celebrate what used to be there.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Carter08

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

Oh ya what about prewar ? Eh?? Eh????

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Jackie. Mays. Aaron. Clemente. Paige. Black players + Mantle absolutely dominate the most popular postwar vintage cards. This claim is complete fiction.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Umm, that is because this is the prewar (i.e. pre-integration) card section. Postwar cards are found in the Postwar Card section and if you look at the pre-1980 section there you will see vibrant, ongoing, long-term threads on Roberto Clemente, Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson. In the post-1980 section there are ongoing threads about Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Larkin. No shortage of discussion of cards of the great black players, just in the sections of the forum that cover the eras in which they played.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

And Rizzuto


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Wolt]

Rizzuto lived in Hillside, NJ
as Ted Z used to comment about

[John1941]

Continuing with Doby...

Doby actually got his start in baseball with integrated semi-pro teams in New Jersey. He played in the Passaic-Bergen League with the Smart Sets in 1941 and Curtiss-Wright in 1942, and with Glen Rock of the Bergen County League in 1942.

He was considered the greatest all-around athlete in the history of Eastside HS (Paterson NJ) and on February 19, 1942, there was a large banquet held in his honor. On July 12, 1943, the his former team the Wright Aeros held "Larry Doby Day" for him (though he couldn't make it to the game as the Newark Eagles booked a game for that day last-minute.)