Racism and baseball cards

[Exhibitman]

Counterpoint:

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Counterpoint:

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

These blotters were just the sort of thing I collected when prewar cards started to get beyond my reach. I can't believe that they are now $2500 items.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

[Brian]

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Jackie. Mays. Aaron. Clemente. Paige. Black players + Mantle absolutely dominate the most popular postwar vintage cards. This claim is complete fiction.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Umm, that is because this is the prewar (i.e. pre-integration) card section. Postwar cards are found in the Postwar Card section and if you look at the pre-1980 section there you will see vibrant, ongoing, long-term threads on Roberto Clemente, Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson. In the post-1980 section there are ongoing threads about Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Larkin. No shortage of discussion of cards of the great black players, just in the sections of the forum that cover the eras in which they played.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

And Rizzuto


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[John1941]

Continuing with Doby...

Doby actually got his start in baseball with integrated semi-pro teams in New Jersey. He played in the Passaic-Bergen League with the Smart Sets in 1941 and Curtiss-Wright in 1942, and with Glen Rock of the Bergen County League in 1942.

He was considered the greatest all-around athlete in the history of Eastside HS (Paterson NJ) and on February 19, 1942, there was a large banquet held in his honor. On July 12, 1943, the his former team the Wright Aeros held "Larry Doby Day" for him (though he couldn't make it to the game as the Newark Eagles booked a game for that day last-minute.)

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Fully agree....

Larry Doby debuted with the Indians a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson did with Brooklyn. Just 11 weeks difference, and virtually nobody knows who he is!

Here's a video we did a while back that deals with vintage pennants, but same basic topic as is being discussed here. Perhaps some of you will find it interesting. Here's the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Fully agree....

Larry Doby debuted with the Indians a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson did with Brooklyn. Just 11 weeks difference, and virtually nobody knows who he is!

Here's a video we did a while back that deals with vintage pennants, but same basic topic as is being discussed here. Perhaps some of you will find it interesting. Here's the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

Well said. I love Jackie Robinson, and not to diminish him and all he endured, I just never have understood why Larry Doby isn't revered as well. I know someone had to be the first, and that's Jackie Robinson. I just feel Larry Doby is somehow glossed over.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

+1

People think of Larry Doby as having had barriers broken down for him by Jackie Robinson, but as you point out, because the AL and NL were so separate, the players and fans in the in the AL basically treated Doby as the 1st to break the color barrier.

Doby was also overshaded by a different Robinson--Frank Robinson became the 1st black Manager in 1974, and four years later, Doby became the 2nd black Manager (for the White Sox).

[brianp-beme]

Great points that I didn't realize about Larry Doby. Thanks for bringing them up.

Brian

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

I love Campy's cards and there are some great ones. Here's my favorite:

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

Maybe a little closer to home, Barry Bonds might make the list.

/ducks while people throw stuff at me.