Racism and baseball cards

[darkhorse9]

This isn't looking to start a firestorm, but an interesting question was brought up to me

In the early post war card years (say 1948-1950) integrated baseball was still a touchy subject. It's possible many collectors at that time might have refused to keep cards of certain players. Could that have had an impact on the survivor numbers of those player's cards?

[Snapolit1]

I guess that possible. No one could ever confirm.

[Jay Wolt]

Here's a blatant racist card made by a card company (Gad in 1963)

[jason.1969]

Some racist imagery on the Mungo card’s cartoon.

[Chris Counts]

I was told by an authority on the topic that cards of African-American players in the 1949 and 1950 Remar Bread sets were tougher to find because some distributors refused carry them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Here's a blatant racist card made by a card company (Gad in 1963)

A lovely Pele rookie.

[Exhibitman]

Counterpoint:

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Counterpoint:

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

[oaks1912]

Chris,
Absolutely correct. The Remars were distributed one player per week, free of charge, in most East Bay Area (Oakland) markets. However there are period collectors that lived in upper middle class areas (Kensington, Berkeley Hills, Piedmont for example) that do not remember seeing any cards of the black players being distributed at their local markets.

In diverse, middle class areas, such as the Berkeley flatlands, Richmond and East Oakland, all of the players were distributed at the local markets. I don't think the issue was with Remar Bakery, as owner Peter Pedersen sponsored around 100 youth baseball teams in and around Oakland beginning in the 1930's as part of the Remar Baseball League. The problem was likely with a few individual grocery store owners that either disagreed with integrating baseball, or that some of their customers may have been offended.

Three of the cards pictured were definitely tougher to acquire when I first started to build Remar sets 50 years ago. (Woods was the toughest for me to initially acquire) The Wilson card was likely printed in larger quantities due to his popularity with fans, and despite the absence from some retail markets (maybe 5-10%), other markets were likely given larger quantities, and the kids could grab as many as they wanted. Wilson, the last .400 hitter in the Negro Leagues also went on to become the PCL batting champ in '49 with a .348 average.

Mark

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

I was told by an authority on the topic that cards of African-American players in the 1949 and 1950 Remar Bread sets were tougher to find because some distributors refused carry them.

[mrreality68]

And it is still effected today as many collectors will not buy cards of Cap Aanson because of his history of Racism

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

And it is still effected today as many collectors will not buy cards of Cap Anson because of his history of Racism

I had not thought of this, the (for lack of a better term) virtue signaling of commenting on historical dislikes of people long dead seemingly effects the market more now than the current issues of the past. I would believe it does reflect stronger today. Some of the nonsense Stump published on Cobb seemed to affect pricing until many saw through the charade, the movie was a travesty.

That said I am sure there were isolated incidents such as noted on the Remars, but I doubt they were largely embraced. I would think it would more largely affect the pioneers of each sport far more that just players after the fact. If a true issue, then Jackie Robinson should be the most discarded and I see no discernable truth of that.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

And it is still effected today as many collectors will not buy cards of Cap Aanson because of his history of Racism

As a Cubs collector, Anson's issue is more powerful than simple racism.

Many people and players were racist at this point in time as it was socially acceptable, but Anson wielded his power and influence to institutionalize racism as an operating procedure in the game.

That's a major reason racist like Jimmy Ryan is in the somewhat recently created Cubs Team HOF and Cap Anson isn't.

[Exhibitman]

Boxing provides a useful perspective on this because only boxing sets had cards of black athletes in decent numbers in the Jim Crow era.

There is a definite shortage of four 1910 T226 Red Sun boxing cards: Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford. All were black fighters. No hard evidence as to whether they were short printed by the Louisiana company or simply thrown away when found, but there are very few of each in existence today. FWIW, I do not think it coincidental that every black man in the set is affected and given how few of these cards are out there, I think the intentional SP hypothesis is the more likely one. After all, those fighters were on numerous sets in the 1895-1912 period and those cards are not in such insanely short supply. They are found in the same approximate quantities as the other cards in the sets, which does not indicate a pervasive race-based trashing of cards.

There are numerous examples in boxing cards of black men being treated equal to white men with whom they competed. The most abundant boxing cards from 1921-1948 are Exhibit cards, and there were many black fighters in those sets. Although there was a form of gentleman's agreement after Jack Johnson's reign that kept the heavyweight title in a racial lockdown for 22 years, in 1937 Joe Louis won the title, a full 10 years and a world war before Jackie Robinson's debut. It seems to me that in boxing cards, with rare exceptions, if the man was given a chance to compete and did well, he was respected. Look at the back of the 1948 Leaf Louis card, which says Louis is "considered greatest heavyweight of all time."

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boxing provides a useful perspective on this because only boxing sets had cards of black athletes in decent numbers in the Jim Crow era.

There is a definite shortage of four 1910 T226 Red Sun boxing cards: Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford. All were black fighters. No hard evidence as to whether they were short printed by the Louisiana company or simply thrown away when found, but there are very few of each in existence today. FWIW, I do not think it coincidental that every black man in the set is affected and given how few of these cards are out there, I think the intentional SP hypothesis is the more likely one. After all, those fighters were on numerous sets in the 1895-1912 period and those cards are not in such insanely short supply. They are found in the same approximate quantities as the other cards in the sets, which does not indicate a pervasive race-based trashing of cards.

There are numerous examples in boxing cards of black men being treated equal to white men with whom they competed. The most abundant boxing cards from 1921-1948 are Exhibit cards, and there were many black fighters in those sets. Although there was a form of gentleman's agreement after Jack Johnson's reign that kept the heavyweight title in a racial lockdown for 22 years, in 1937 Joe Louis won the title, a full 10 years and a world war before Jackie Robinson's debut. It seems to me that in boxing cards, with rare exceptions, if the man was given a chance to compete and did well, he was respected. Look at the back of the 1948 Leaf Louis card, which says Louis is "considered greatest heavyweight of all time."

At about the same time, the same parent company super printed Jack Johnson for T218 as the sole superprint in the set.

[jingram058]

Eracism

[Fred]

Does anybody know if there's a difference in population of the 1916 Zeenut Jimmy Claxton card with respect to any other common 1916 Zeenut card? My thought is that if there's a huge known difference, then it's very possible people discarded the Claxton card due to his heritage. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess there's a higher population of graded 1916 Claxton Zeenut cards (than other players from that year) due to the notoriety of the card.

What about the N172 George Treadway cards? I've found those come up for auction at about a normal pace as other common cards. The price has gone up a little and that's probably due to the information available to the collecting public about the discrimination he suffered. He had a heck of a season in the National League in 1894.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

These blotters were just the sort of thing I collected when prewar cards started to get beyond my reach. I can't believe that they are now $2500 items.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

[Brian]

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Fully agree....

Larry Doby debuted with the Indians a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson did with Brooklyn. Just 11 weeks difference, and virtually nobody knows who he is!

Here's a video we did a while back that deals with vintage pennants, but same basic topic as is being discussed here. Perhaps some of you will find it interesting. Here's the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boxing provides a useful perspective on this because only boxing sets had cards of black athletes in decent numbers in the Jim Crow era.

There is a definite shortage of four 1910 T226 Red Sun boxing cards: Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford. All were black fighters. No hard evidence as to whether they were short printed by the Louisiana company or simply thrown away when found, but there are very few of each in existence today. FWIW, I do not think it coincidental that every black man in the set is affected and given how few of these cards are out there, I think the intentional SP hypothesis is the more likely one. After all, those fighters were on numerous sets in the 1895-1912 period and those cards are not in such insanely short supply. They are found in the same approximate quantities as the other cards in the sets, which does not indicate a pervasive race-based trashing of cards.

There are numerous examples in boxing cards of black men being treated equal to white men with whom they competed. The most abundant boxing cards from 1921-1948 are Exhibit cards, and there were many black fighters in those sets. Although there was a form of gentleman's agreement after Jack Johnson's reign that kept the heavyweight title in a racial lockdown for 22 years, in 1937 Joe Louis won the title, a full 10 years and a world war before Jackie Robinson's debut. It seems to me that in boxing cards, with rare exceptions, if the man was given a chance to compete and did well, he was respected. Look at the back of the 1948 Leaf Louis card, which says Louis is "considered greatest heavyweight of all time."

Hi Adam, I always lived the t9s. Sadly I sold before the prices went ballistic. Anyhow, they were a.premium and hand ordered , so is there any evidence the black boxers were ordered less frequently? I only remember hearing Johnny Marto was difficult. A short Italian who likely identified as Caucasian for those who don't know the set

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Carter08

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

Oh ya what about prewar ? Eh?? Eh????

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

Except that if you look at the other fighters, they are frequently identified via race or ethnicity as well in the card bios. Ethnic rivalry was great for the box office. It wasn't a denigrating call-out to identify a fighter by race or religion or nationality, it was actually good business. Jewish fight fans, for example, were rabid and numerous, and they would actively support their co-religionists. There was even some attention paid to the fact that Jack Dempsey had a Jewish great-great-grandmother (he mentions it in one of his autobiographies), and Max Baer wore the Star of David on his trunks, ostensibly in honor of a Jewish grandfather but mostly because it was really good business to be seen as a Jewish heavyweight. Italian-American fighter Salvatore Mandala changed his ring name to Sammy Mandell to sound more Jewish. Jimmy McLarnin was nicknamed "Jew Killer" because he KOd a number of HOF Jewish fighters. He got KTFO'd by my cousin, Ray Miller, another Jewish fighter.



Ray in turn lost the battle of Chicago Jewish lightweights to HOFer (and war hero) Barney Ross:

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Hi Adam, I always lived the t9s. Sadly I sold before the prices went ballistic. Anyhow, they were a.premium and hand ordered , so is there any evidence the black boxers were ordered less frequently? I only remember hearing Johnny Marto was difficult. A short Italian who likely identified as Caucasian for those who don't know the set

T226 - the black fighters are short printed.

T218 - one of the 4 black fighters is the only superprint.

All other T card sets from the ATC - no evidence of super or short printing of black subjects. If anything Johnson, Langford and Jeanette appear to be more common than most but I don’t think anyone has been able prove the printing was uneven (the ability to request doesn’t necessitate different print runs or mixing sheet layouts; they reserved the right to substitute cards for what was on hand). Johnson appears to me to be the easiest subject in the entire set by a wide margin.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Jackie. Mays. Aaron. Clemente. Paige. Black players + Mantle absolutely dominate the most popular postwar vintage cards. This claim is complete fiction.

[Brian]

Awesome story about your cousin, Adam, and nice anti-racist memorabilia!

Valid points about the cards, although I have not seen any other hyphenated cards, like "Roman Catholic-American", "Muslim-American," or "Protestant-American." I have also seen Jewish-American. But what confounded/amused me was to refer to someone as "Hebrew". Maybe it was a sign of the times, and maybe that is how we were referred to, but I thought that language was last used by the Pharaohs! I had thought that its usage in the early part of the century leaned toward the derogatory (but maybe it's just me).

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

I love Campy's cards and there are some great ones. Here's my favorite:

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Awesome story about your cousin, Adam, and nice anti-racist memorabilia!

Valid points about the cards, although I have not seen any other hyphenated cards, like "Roman Catholic-American", "Muslim-American," or "Protestant-American." I have also seen Jewish-American. But what confounded/amused me was to refer to someone as "Hebrew". Maybe it was a sign of the times, and maybe that is how we were referred to, but I thought that language was last used by the Pharaohs! I had thought that its usage in the early part of the century leaned toward the derogatory (but maybe it's just me).

There were many cards that identified the fighters with hyphenates. Here is "Irish-American" Tommy Loughran:



The only religious call-outs were the Hebrews. There is also this Exhibit wrestling card from the 1930s:



It is the only card in that series that uses a religious label.

Different times and different sensitivities.

Seems to me that we've had a gradual move towards the groups in question setting their own terms of reference, and resetting them over time. Check the cards of the black fighters: "colored" was the phrase of the day. "Hebrew" was one of the polite terms used at the time. Abe Attell was nicknamed "The Little Hebrew". There were a lot more derogatory phrases available to describe "Hebrew" fighters, same as there were for "colored" fighters. It's all contextual. I mean, when I grew up "Negro" was archaic but not impolite--your grandma would use it--but the word of the times was "black". That's what I was taught to use. That held true for about 25-30 years or so. In Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing (1989), the characters didn't tell each other to "stay African-American", they told each other to "stay black"; that was the term in 1989. About 15-20 years ago, the term "African-American" picked up and my "black" usage was considered archaic and even somewhat demeaning. I switched it up. Recently, it went back to "black" because African-American was too USA centric, and I was told by my Gen Z kid to switch it up again. I am sure Jackie Robinson would have been just fine to be called a "Negro" in 1947; lord knows he was called a lot of other things. In 1977, it was different, and it woud have been mildly offensive. Not punch in the mouth offensive, but more like drunk uncle at Thanksgiving offensive.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There were many cards that identified the fighters with hyphenates. Here is "Irish-American" Tommy Loughran:



The only religious call-outs were the Hebrews. There is also this Exhibit wrestling card from the 1930s:



It is the only card in that series that uses a religious label.

Different times and different sensitivities.

Seems to me that we've had a gradual move towards the groups in question setting their own terms of reference, and resetting them over time. Check the cards of the black fighters: "colored" was the phrase of the day. "Hebrew" was one of the polite terms used at the time. Abe Attell was nicknamed "The Little Hebrew". There were a lot more derogatory phrases available to describe "Hebrew" fighters, same as there were for "colored" fighters. It's all contextual. I mean, when I grew up "Negro" was archaic but not impolite--your grandma would use it--but the word of the times was "black". That's what I was taught to use. That held true for about 25-30 years or so. In Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing (1989), the characters didn't tell each other to "stay African-American", they told each other to "stay black"; that was the term in 1989. About 15-20 years ago, the term "African-American" picked up and my "black" usage was considered archaic and even somewhat demeaning. I switched it up. Recently, it went back to "black" because African-American was too USA centric, and I was told by my Gen Z kid to switch it up again. I am sure Jackie Robinson would have been just fine to be called a "Negro" in 1947; lord knows he was called a lot of other things. In 1977, it was different, and it woud have been mildly offensive. Not punch in the mouth offensive, but more like drunk uncle at Thanksgiving offensive.

So true....

and a few religious circa 1940s, Mel Ott, blotters ...

[ValKehl]

This interesting, really good read about Larry Doby appears in today's Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...-world-series/

I think the Wash. Post permits non subscribers to access one article per day (or per week) before it invokes a paywall. If I am wrong, please LMK, and I'll cut and paste this piece.

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

As a Cubs collector, Anson's issue is more powerful than simple racism.

Many people and players were racist at this point in time as it was socially acceptable, but Anson wielded his power and influence to institutionalize racism as an operating procedure in the game.

That's a major reason racist like Jimmy Ryan is in the somewhat recently created Cubs Team HOF and Cap Anson isn't.

As a chronicler of the whole history of Cubs baseball cards, the Anson thing is incredibly tough for me. Anson was a huge star and would be the perfect grandfather of Chicago baseball, except for that whole "who he was" thing. I don't ignore his cards, but instead lean into the Anson/Banks contrast. Anson perpetuated the color barrier and Ernie Banks, at least for the Cubs, broke it. Ernie looks even better in comparison.

And I definitely support the team's decision to leave him out of the Cubs HOF. Now if they would just put in Wild Bill Hutchison and Bill Nicholson.

[ALBB]

and then there were those mid 60s " tract " cards....they were called-
with a religious slant

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Here's a blatant racist card made by a card company (Gad in 1963)

THIS is beyond words, especially for a product made in Minnesota.

[mortimer brewster]

In the late 1960s baseball digest magazine when profiling Major League prospects would routinely include the players race.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

Maybe a little closer to home, Barry Bonds might make the list.

/ducks while people throw stuff at me.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boxing provides a useful perspective on this because only boxing sets had cards of black athletes in decent numbers in the Jim Crow era.

There is a definite shortage of four 1910 T226 Red Sun boxing cards: Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford. All were black fighters. No hard evidence as to whether they were short printed by the Louisiana company or simply thrown away when found, but there are very few of each in existence today. FWIW, I do not think it coincidental that every black man in the set is affected and given how few of these cards are out there, I think the intentional SP hypothesis is the more likely one. After all, those fighters were on numerous sets in the 1895-1912 period and those cards are not in such insanely short supply. They are found in the same approximate quantities as the other cards in the sets, which does not indicate a pervasive race-based trashing of cards.

There are numerous examples in boxing cards of black men being treated equal to white men with whom they competed. The most abundant boxing cards from 1921-1948 are Exhibit cards, and there were many black fighters in those sets. Although there was a form of gentleman's agreement after Jack Johnson's reign that kept the heavyweight title in a racial lockdown for 22 years, in 1937 Joe Louis won the title, a full 10 years and a world war before Jackie Robinson's debut. It seems to me that in boxing cards, with rare exceptions, if the man was given a chance to compete and did well, he was respected. Look at the back of the 1948 Leaf Louis card, which says Louis is "considered greatest heavyweight of all time."

This is an interesting historical observation.

[Exhibitman]

Thanks.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Except that if you look at the other fighters, they are frequently identified via race or ethnicity as well in the card bios. Ethnic rivalry was great for the box office. It wasn't a denigrating call-out to identify a fighter by race or religion or nationality, it was actually good business. Jewish fight fans, for example, were rabid and numerous, and they would actively support their co-religionists. There was even some attention paid to the fact that Jack Dempsey had a Jewish great-great-grandmother (he mentions it in one of his autobiographies), and Max Baer wore the Star of David on his trunks, ostensibly in honor of a Jewish grandfather but mostly because it was really good business to be seen as a Jewish heavyweight. Italian-American fighter Salvatore Mandala changed his ring name to Sammy Mandell to sound more Jewish. Jimmy McLarnin was nicknamed "Jew Killer" because he KOd a number of HOF Jewish fighters. He got KTFO'd by my cousin, Ray Miller, another Jewish fighter.



Ray in turn lost the battle of Chicago Jewish lightweights to HOFer (and war hero) Barney Ross:

While I wasn't a true Chicagoan (I didn't live in the city) but I spent a great deal of time there and worked on the north side for several years, I had never heard of Sparta Stadium. I had to look it up and didn't realize that there was a stadium at this location.

This was a pretty cool little sports "nugget" of history. Next time I am that way I need to pay more attention and celebrate what used to be there.

[sbfinley]

I'll preface this saying that I'm not explicitly saying this card is "racist", but my teenage son was sorting some cards a couple months ago and brought to attention the back of Hank Thompson's 1950 Bowman card. He said, in more words or less: "Was it okay to use the term 'Negro" that loosely?" 1950 was 30 so odd years before my time so without getting in too long of a lesson that night my best response was "well the cards were made for kids to sell bubble gum so yeah... that was pretty tame and kosher for the time." It also gave me a nice segway to start teaching him more about the Negro Leagues as we have since then.

[commishbob]

Lots to unpack in this thread. I missed it originally so I am glad it was revived.

For one thing that Stahl-Meyer Campy is awesome for sure.

The Larry Doby talk reminded me of my tour of the NLBM in KC a few years back. Was part of a small group lucky enough to be have the director, Bob Kendrick, lead us around. He had a lot to say about Doby and what he went through. It was quite the tour.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by darkhorse9

This isn't looking to start a firestorm, but an interesting question was brought up to me

In the early post war card years (say 1948-1950) integrated baseball was still a touchy subject. It's possible many collectors at that time might have refused to keep cards of certain players. Could that have had an impact on the survivor numbers of those player's cards?

Back in the day, set collecting was something a lot of the kids did. So, even if the racist ones pulled black players from the packs, they still had to keep them, right ?? Even the doubles of black players were probably kept (so they could be traded away for the players you needed to complete the set!)

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

And Rizzuto


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Wolt]

Rizzuto lived in Hillside, NJ
as Ted Z used to comment about

[John1941]

Continuing with Doby...

Doby actually got his start in baseball with integrated semi-pro teams in New Jersey. He played in the Passaic-Bergen League with the Smart Sets in 1941 and Curtiss-Wright in 1942, and with Glen Rock of the Bergen County League in 1942.

He was considered the greatest all-around athlete in the history of Eastside HS (Paterson NJ) and on February 19, 1942, there was a large banquet held in his honor. On July 12, 1943, the his former team the Wright Aeros held "Larry Doby Day" for him (though he couldn't make it to the game as the Newark Eagles booked a game for that day last-minute.)

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I'll preface this saying that I'm not explicitly saying this card is "racist", but my teenage son was sorting some cards a couple months ago and brought to attention the back of Hank Thompson's 1950 Bowman card. He said, in more words or less: "Was it okay to use the term 'Negro" that loosely?" 1950 was 30 so odd years before my time so without getting in too long of a lesson that night my best response was "well the cards were made for kids to sell bubble gum so yeah... that was pretty tame and kosher for the time." It also gave me a nice segway to start teaching him more about the Negro Leagues as we have since then.

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "loosely." To my knowledge, in 1950, the word 'Negro' was not offensive in any sense whatsoever. That didn't come until much later. The U.S. Supreme Court still routinely issued opinions, into the mid-1980s, using that term (not quoting from earlier sources but simply as a description of a person's race). Of course they were out of touch with what was standard in the '80s. But it's an indication for what was standard language when the then-elderly members of the Court were much younger.