Racism and baseball cards

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Counterpoint:

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Nice Adam, I expect this thread will degrade quickly. Can someone please post a card of Mr. Rickey.

These blotters were just the sort of thing I collected when prewar cards started to get beyond my reach. I can't believe that they are now $2500 items.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

[Snapolit1]

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

[Brian]

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Adam, that is all true about the Boxing cards of the 1920s.

But I also have a bunch of those cards, largely Jewish boxers, and the backs of those cards say "Nationality: Hebrew" or "Nationality: Hebrew-American."

Seriously? I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that the first time!

Except that if you look at the other fighters, they are frequently identified via race or ethnicity as well in the card bios. Ethnic rivalry was great for the box office. It wasn't a denigrating call-out to identify a fighter by race or religion or nationality, it was actually good business. Jewish fight fans, for example, were rabid and numerous, and they would actively support their co-religionists. There was even some attention paid to the fact that Jack Dempsey had a Jewish great-great-grandmother (he mentions it in one of his autobiographies), and Max Baer wore the Star of David on his trunks, ostensibly in honor of a Jewish grandfather but mostly because it was really good business to be seen as a Jewish heavyweight. Italian-American fighter Salvatore Mandala changed his ring name to Sammy Mandell to sound more Jewish. Jimmy McLarnin was nicknamed "Jew Killer" because he KOd a number of HOF Jewish fighters. He got KTFO'd by my cousin, Ray Miller, another Jewish fighter.



Ray in turn lost the battle of Chicago Jewish lightweights to HOFer (and war hero) Barney Ross:

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Carter08

This seems far from true. Jackie, Mays, Aaron are what, 3 of the top 8 or so guys collected?

Oh ya what about prewar ? Eh?? Eh????

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Jackie. Mays. Aaron. Clemente. Paige. Black players + Mantle absolutely dominate the most popular postwar vintage cards. This claim is complete fiction.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you looked at the top 50 or so cards that are discussed ad infinituim on this board you would have a difficult time imagining that African-Americans have been in MLB since 1947 or that they are any good at the sport. Just sayin.

Umm, that is because this is the prewar (i.e. pre-integration) card section. Postwar cards are found in the Postwar Card section and if you look at the pre-1980 section there you will see vibrant, ongoing, long-term threads on Roberto Clemente, Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson. In the post-1980 section there are ongoing threads about Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Larkin. No shortage of discussion of cards of the great black players, just in the sections of the forum that cover the eras in which they played.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Larry Doby was a neighbor of mine in Montclair, NJ. I'd say 3/4 of the people in town had no idea who he was. Terrible. His son Larry Doby, Jr. does a wonderful job keeping his legacy alive.

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pretty cool that Monclair had Doby & Yogi living there

And Rizzuto


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Wolt]

Rizzuto lived in Hillside, NJ
as Ted Z used to comment about

[John1941]

Continuing with Doby...

Doby actually got his start in baseball with integrated semi-pro teams in New Jersey. He played in the Passaic-Bergen League with the Smart Sets in 1941 and Curtiss-Wright in 1942, and with Glen Rock of the Bergen County League in 1942.

He was considered the greatest all-around athlete in the history of Eastside HS (Paterson NJ) and on February 19, 1942, there was a large banquet held in his honor. On July 12, 1943, the his former team the Wright Aeros held "Larry Doby Day" for him (though he couldn't make it to the game as the Newark Eagles booked a game for that day last-minute.)

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Interesting topic. I doubt it was a major issue considering the early Jackie promos with Old Gold Cigarettes and Bond Bread. That's definitely an outlier considering the circumstances with him at the time. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cards for other african-american stars at the time... just think about the Campy, Doby, Paige (doubt his SPs were a result of his race), Doby cards from about the same time.

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Fully agree....

Larry Doby debuted with the Indians a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson did with Brooklyn. Just 11 weeks difference, and virtually nobody knows who he is!

Here's a video we did a while back that deals with vintage pennants, but same basic topic as is being discussed here. Perhaps some of you will find it interesting. Here's the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Fully agree....

Larry Doby debuted with the Indians a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson did with Brooklyn. Just 11 weeks difference, and virtually nobody knows who he is!

Here's a video we did a while back that deals with vintage pennants, but same basic topic as is being discussed here. Perhaps some of you will find it interesting. Here's the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

Well said. I love Jackie Robinson, and not to diminish him and all he endured, I just never have understood why Larry Doby isn't revered as well. I know someone had to be the first, and that's Jackie Robinson. I just feel Larry Doby is somehow glossed over.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

+1

People think of Larry Doby as having had barriers broken down for him by Jackie Robinson, but as you point out, because the AL and NL were so separate, the players and fans in the in the AL basically treated Doby as the 1st to break the color barrier.

Doby was also overshaded by a different Robinson--Frank Robinson became the 1st black Manager in 1974, and four years later, Doby became the 2nd black Manager (for the White Sox).

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

+1

People think of Larry Doby as having had barriers broken down for him by Jackie Robinson, but as you point out, because the AL and NL were so separate, the players and fans in the in the AL basically treated Doby as the 1st to break the color barrier.

Doby was also overshaded by a different Robinson--Frank Robinson became the 1st black Manager in 1974, and four years later, Doby became the 2nd black Manager (for the White Sox).

I have a Facebook page called "Baseball History Through Lineup Cards" where I highlight lineup cards in my collection and tell some stories of baseball history. I recently posted about this:

Larry Doby had a habit of being second in a world that only has the attention span to really know about the first. And because of it, he remains one of the most underappreciated people in the story of baseball history.

On July 5, 1947 in the top of the 7th inning of a 5-1 game between the White Sox and Indians, and runners on 1st and 3rd, Larry Eugene Doby stepped up to the plate for the Indians. He was a military veteran, having spent time at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, Treasure Island Naval Base and time in the Pacific Theatre. He had attended college at Virginia Union University. The day before he had been playing with the Newark Eagles. On this day, he stepped up to the plate, and promptly struck out.

There are many aspect of Larry Doby's journey that mirrored Jackie Robinson's. Their university education. Their military experience. Their time spent in the Negro Leagues. They both played against teams who had never faced a black ballplayer in a professional game, as Robinson played in the NL while Doby played in the AL, at a time when there was no interleague play outside of the World Series.

There are differences of course. Jackie Robinson was signed a year earlier and played a season in the Minors, while Doby was playing in the Negro Leagues until immediately before. But maybe the biggest difference is that Jackie was first.

Jackie Robinson was signed to be a trailblazer. Branch Rickey planned every detail. He made sure that Jackie had black teammates while he was in the Minors in Montreal, signing John Wright, and later Roy Partlow.

In contrast, Doby was signed by Bill Veeck, the legendary showman who owned the Indians for just a few years. Who was known for his off-the-wall ideas. There was no preparation. Doby was thrown into a league who largely did not want him there. He was challenged to stand on his own two feet. To blaze a path similar to Jackie's but without the reknown and focus.
And like Jackie, and a shocking number of early integrators, Doby overcame the adversity and played at a Hall-of-Fame level, an honor bestowed in 1998, just 5 years before his passing.

28 years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier as a Dodgers player, Frank Robinson became the first black manager. He was towards the end of his career when he had been traded to the Indians near the end of 1974, and in 1975, he became player-manager. Robinson would go on to manage for 17 years total, spread across the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's.

Doby meanwhile, had followed up his career becoming a scout for the Montreal Expos in their inaugural 1969 season. He was their minor league instructor in 1970 and their batting coach from 1971-1973. In 1976, Bill Veeck bought the White Sox (for the second time) and hired Doby. In 1978, after Veeck fired Doby's former teammate and fellow HOF Bob Lemon from the managerial position, Doby took his place. In doing so, on June 30, 1978, he became the second black manager in baseball.

The White Sox were playing sub-.500 ball for the 74 games before Doby became manager. In the remaining 87 games of the season, he was unable to turn the team around. And after the season, Veeck decided to hire Don Kessinger as manager for the 1979 season. Kessinger himself would only manage for little more than half the season, before resigning. His doing so made way for a 34-year former player with almost no MLB playing experience and no managerial experience to become manager. This manager, the fourth in two years, would finally stick and Tony LaRussa would manage for the next 35 straight seasons, (albeit not all with the White Sox) winning 3 World Series.

Doby would never manage again. He returned to the role of batting coach for a season before resigning, and this largely marked the end of his time in the game. One of the great heroes of baseball, but a man who seemed to always be overshadowed.

Those who knew him though, knew who he was. Bob Feller stated, "He was a great American, served the country in World War II, and he was a great ballplayer. He was kind of like Buzz Aldrin, the second man on the moon, because he was the second African-American in the majors behind Jackie Robinson. He was just as good of a ballplayer, an exciting player, and a very good teammate."

This lineup card is the only one I have ever come across from Doby's time as manager. It was used on August 27, 1978 in a 6-0 win against the Cleveland Indians. This copy was the bottom copy on the lineup card pad, and because of how faded it was, Doby signed his name in pen and someone (presumably Doby) rewrote the lineup out.

On Martin Luther King Day of 2025, we remember one of the great black pioneers of baseball, a sport whose integration King recognized as paving the road for his work.

[brianp-beme]

Great points that I didn't realize about Larry Doby. Thanks for bringing them up.

Brian

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Something I know you know, but others seem to forget, is the way that the leagues were really separate entities back then. The AL and NL did not play each other, other than the World Series. And there were AL fans and NL fans.

Larry Doby was 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson, but that understates his reality. No teams that Doby had played against had played against Jackie Robinson or any other black player in an official game (they may have in Spring Training of interracial barnstorming game). In basically every situation he entered, Doby was the first, in the same way that Jackie was. The only difference I am aware of is the level of national coverage.

Additionally, Jackie's entrance into the game was far more orchestrated. In 1946 he played in Montreal which was specifically chosen for its general acceptance of black people. He also always had a black teammate while there, initially Johnny Wright and later Roy Partlow (I think I may be forgetting one other). He had a year in the Minors to prepare for the Major League experience. Doby, on the other hand was thrown in, all alone, with little prep and no teammate.

I've been looking for a Doby pre-MLB (edit: Type I) photo for a while (military or Negro Leagues). So far just have this...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

To me, the biggest travesties are the fact that Campy cards are drastically undervalued to this day. I don't think it has anything to do with racism but how can a 3x MVP in a major market, on a storied franchise, with an amazing story, have early cards available for peanuts is beyond me. Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

I love Campy's cards and there are some great ones. Here's my favorite:

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Also, it's a real shame that the average american still doesn't know who Larry Doby is. At least he got into the HOF while he was living.

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Yeah, ask Buzz Aldrin about this. Second man on the moon, minutes after Neil Armstrong.

Maybe a little closer to home, Barry Bonds might make the list.

/ducks while people throw stuff at me.