Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

[Lorewalker]

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

And that is zactly why I qualified my statement with ..."if that were possible".

Don't fool yourself if ya think this a high grade issue. It is an issue that exists in any card that has enough value that it is worth being altered.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

Part of the fun here is that it seems like a hopeless business.

Let’s say I have some high grade cards. I hope they’re legit and not doctored. I’ve dug around on the lists of doctored cards to make sure mine are not on those lists. I suppose that’s a good first step. If I did have pieces that were on the list, I’m not sure what I would do about it, particularly if I picked them up years and years ago. Probably include a disclosure about it being on the list when I go to sell?

But when I hear about some high grade cards that are doctored, what should I do? Do I make a bunch of noise and jump up and down? Post stuff around here berating the TPG responsible? Do I send a strongly worded letter to PSA? Do I stop using PSA to grade my cards? Maybe that’s what people are hoping for, so PSA will lose market share and feel our collective wrath and desire to atone for their previous sins of not catching these alterations.

Obviously that seems like an unlikely outcome.

About the only other option available to me is to dump all of my PSA graded stuff, either out of principle or because I’m paranoid that someday everything I hold will lose value when the shine comes off of the PSA brand due to their many failures. And from henceforth I only collect raw stuff that I hope hasn’t been altered?

I suppose that’s an option, but it seems to be a pretty extreme approach to take.

But maybe others have some brilliant ideas on the appropriate approach for someone who cares but also happens to have an extensive existing collection built largely around high grade pieces graded by the TPGs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

Cool. Let’s dig deep into my motives to make sure they are sufficiently pure.

First and most importantly, I would certainly enjoy it less. Every time I saw it, I would shake my head and glare at it menacingly, holding that I could somehow avoid the conundrum now facing me, and perhaps cleanse it of iniquity through the power of my disdain. And I would probably cast about, trying to figure out what I should do with it, and how to get rid of it, since it no longer brings me pleasure.

I’m not sure how I go about getting rid of it though. It seems like it’s not appropriate to sell it to someone else. PSA isn’t going to honor their guarantee. SGC has no guarantee (other than the false advertising one in the name).

Do I chuck it on the burn pile and burn it?

Obviously that’s easier to do if it’s not worth much. If it was worth 5 or 6 figures, now it’s a serious pickle.

[Lorewalker]

Aren't we all taking a leap of faith when we pay large and sometimes huge premiums for the graded material we put our money into? Are we doing so be cause we believe the company is solid and will continue to be respected enough at least until we deem it time to sell? Or possibly because we know there are others who are buying into the same brand? How many people have to exit before the value of that holder is diminished? What if, as has happened, one of those companies goes under for fraud? Sure we still own the card but how much of that card's value is due to the initials on the holder? And what if that card in that holder is altered or might be altered and it cannot go into another company's holder with a numerical grade?

[BioCRN]

I'm 100% sure that some cards that only bring 2-3 figures are being doctored pre-submission/re-submission, but those buyers generally don't have the voice or resources to elevate the issue as a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Those that have 5-6+ figures to spend on a slab are the ones that can police this issue and they don't seem to be doing it. I don't know if they have some kind of sunk cost issue where they don't want to disrupt the market/portfoliio they've already invested in or if they're ignorant it's happening on the scale it's happening.

This is before taking into consideration the sheer amount of doctored stuff that happened decades before grading was even a thing and had a chance to "naturally" age, hiding some of the doctoring that was done decades ago.

I think every grader out there has issues with some stuff like 1955 Bowman baseball, which is all over the place pack-fresh. I've seen an enormous amount of 55 Bowman baseball in slabs that doesn't seem to pass the eye test, but it's out-of-the-factory variation gives it a lot of cover for grading.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Aren't we all taking a leap of faith when we pay large and sometimes huge premiums for the graded material we put our money into? Are we doing so be cause we believe the company is solid and will continue to be respected enough at least until we deem it time to sell? Or possibly because we know there are others who are buying into the same brand? How many people have to exit before the value of that holder is diminished? What if, as has happened, one of those companies goes under for fraud? Sure we still own the card but how much of that card's value is due to the initials on the holder? And what if that card in that holder is altered or might be altered and it cannot go into another company's holder with a numerical grade?

Therein lies the problem.

A lot of faith and trust given the huge sums involved, yet based on incidents like this one, tragically misplaced.

And with not a lot of viable alternatives, especially if we fear the raw space is equally fraught with alterations.

[JollyElm]

PSA has just introduced a prototype of their newest 'Qualifier,' meant to quell concerns over altered cards being ignored by their graders.

Man, they really got balls!!!


1965Topps300SandyKoufaxnewNADSslab.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Cool. Let’s dig deep into my motives to make sure they are sufficiently pure.

First and most importantly, I would certainly enjoy it less. Every time I saw it, I would shake my head and glare at it menacingly, holding that I could somehow avoid the conundrum now facing me, and perhaps cleanse it of iniquity through the power of my disdain. And I would probably cast about, trying to figure out what I should do with it, and how to get rid of it, since it no longer brings me pleasure.

I’m not sure how I go about getting rid of it though. It seems like it’s not appropriate to sell it to someone else. PSA isn’t going to honor their guarantee. SGC has no guarantee (other than the false advertising one in the name).

Do I chuck it on the burn pile and burn it?

Obviously that’s easier to do if it’s not worth much. If it was worth 5 or 6 figures, now it’s a serious pickle.

You could sell it with disclosure. Nothing at all wrong with that. If no one cares, it won't matter.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You could sell it with disclosure. Nothing at all wrong with that. If no one cares, it won't matter.

Seems like the only way to go then. Either that or perish from the extreme ignominy concomitant with possession of a known altered high grade card, and leave it to my heirs to sort it out.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

There are thousands of us in the hobby. You are surely overgeneralizing. Many do not care, and many do.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are thousands of us in the hobby. You are surely overgeneralizing. Many do not care, and many do.

Peter, sure, some care, but enough to give up on an already slabbed high end card they want? I doubt that.

This whole post is on that psa 9 Irvin. Keep us posted if the buyer send back to the auction. Or if the auction comes out with a statement.

[Johnny630]

A lot of good prospectives on this post, I appreciate what Drew and Snow have to say. They’re keeping it real, it’s the reality of the situation. Sure cards may be trimmed in holders and they may have turned a 30$ into a $30,000 card but what can you do about it other than talk, nothing. It’s the way things are, I go back to a quote once told to me by a wise veteran on the job, he told me, John, you might not like it but some things you just have to accept or it will drive you crazy.

As far as disclosing we are thinking way to highly of people, with the monies these cards are worth in holders, that's sugar pie in the sky fairy tales and daisies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Peter, sure, some care, but enough to give up on an already slabbed high end card they want? I doubt that.

This whole post is on that psa 9 Irvin. Keep us posted if the buyer send back to the auction. Or if the auction comes out with a statement.

When Brent offered refunds for cards that had been outed, plenty of people sent theirs back because they didn't want them. I suppose some could have been motivated by fear the card would be tainted for a future sale, but I would bet a lot that many genuinely did not want them. Don't underestimate how some of us, particularly of a certain age, grew up in a hobby where trimming and recoloring were viewed as unethical, and altered cards were vile.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When Brent offered refunds for cards that had been outed, plenty of people sent theirs back because they didn't want them. I suppose some could have been motivated by fear the card would be tainted for a future sale, but I would bet a lot that many genuinely did not want them. Don't underestimate how some of us, particularly of a certain age, grew up in a hobby where trimming and recoloring were viewed as unethical, and altered cards were vile.

Peter, I also agree it is unethical, but I am a realist and this era of card collecting is total different than 10 or 20 years ago. We are in a brave world here.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Peter, I also agree it is unethical, but I am a realist and this era of card collecting is total different than 10 or 20 years ago. We are in a brave world here.

Are you sure there are more cards being doctored today than 10-20 years ago, as opposed to just more of a concerted effort today and better tools to out doctored cards?