Dealers' Pricing at the National

[brass_rat]

An article from SCD, November 1979.

[bbcard1]

I have found the national to be a great place to go to reconnect and make friends, a bad place to buy cards. The only real buys I have gotten were when I took the time to dig through massive quarter bins, but that's really not what you go to the National for. TBH, I haven't found all that much luck looking for the obscure things on my checklist either. I have been looking for a Jacksonville Jaguars team issue of Chris Parker for years without a sniff of luck.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I have found the national to be a great place to go to reconnect and make friends, a bad place to buy cards. The only real buys I have gotten were when I took the time to dig through massive quarter bins, but that's really not what you go to the National for.

Well, what the heck else is it for? I've pulled some amazing stuff over the years because I roll up my sleeves and go at it. I get to the show when it opens, stay to the close every day, and spend the whole day each day sifting through stuff until the holder cuts on my fingers need bandaging (and I have bandages and tape in my bag so i can clean up and go right back to it). Then again, I am a picker by nature. The thing I love most about collecting is the pick, spotting the gold in the scrap pile. Reminds me of finding boxes of cards at junk shops or receiving boxes of cards from family friends who were throwing their kids' cards away, like when I was a kid. Sometimes it can seem pretty ridiculous that I sit around sifting through ‘junk’, but it pays off, like the time I was going through a $0.10 box at the National. I got some crap for that from fellow collectors passing by, but that was just fine by me because I was mining a run of high grade 1970s football and hockey in that box, and I was pulling a stack of $1-$50 cards out of there. I spent $10 in half an hour and walked away with hundreds of dollars in resale value. I will take that deal all day, every day, but that never happens if you turn up your nose and refuse to put in the work.

[ocjack]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, what the heck else is it for? I've pulled some amazing stuff over the years because I roll up my sleeves and go at it. I get to the show when it opens, stay to the close every day, and spend the whole day each day sifting through stuff until the holder cuts on my fingers need bandaging (and I have bandages and tape in my bag so i can clean up and go right back to it). Then again, I am a picker by nature. The thing I love most about collecting is the pick, spotting the gold in the scrap pile. Reminds me of finding boxes of cards at junk shops or receiving boxes of cards from family friends who were throwing their kids' cards away, like when I was a kid. Sometimes it can seem pretty ridiculous that I sit around sifting through ‘junk’, but it pays off, like the time I was going through a $0.10 box at the National. I got some crap for that from fellow collectors passing by, but that was just fine by me because I was mining a run of high grade 1970s football and hockey in that box, and I was pulling a stack of $1-$50 cards out of there. I spent $10 in half an hour and walked away with hundreds of dollars in resale value. I will take that deal all day, every day, but that never happens if you turn up your nose and refuse to put in the work.

I agree with Adam. I spent years attending and setting up at shows. I would walk around looking for cards on my want list, but I would always go through the dealers 1957 Topps commons. My time was rewarded by finding two Bakep error cards and paying pennies because the dealer classified them as commons. Not every dealer is aware of every possible card of value and if you have the time and the patience, you can take advantage of their lack of knowledge or maybe on a kinder note, their laziness in determing what they really had. And as a side-note as to the scarcity of the Bakep card - probably 15 years of shows and only found 2.

[CardsMax]

Part of what I love about net54 is that it's is own bubble and completely sheltered from the non-vintage hobby, but concurrently expects the pricing of 5 years ago.

Do buyers ever think about where an item is sourced from? If not from private collection buys--which are more infrequent now more than ever--it's from online, or more specifically, an auction house.

Modern cards sell below comps because people fundamentally do not want them. It's all buying and selling and it's commonly accepted that there will always be someone selling the same card cheaper. This is simply not the case for most vintage, especially examples that scarcely come to market.

It's all on perspective. I agree most vintage "dealers" are way more out of touch, but ultimately the remark of "what I'm into it for" stands true. They're the one sourcing absolutely everything, and on items where they have the leverage to sell high, they're going to maximize their dollar both out of their own self interest and that it cost them a pretty penny in the first place (nobody is selling Mantle's at 85% of their going rate).

If a dealer is paying top dollar at an auction house, why should you be entitled to it for less? By that same token, net54 forum readers are some of the most passionate about vintage and collecting and general, and are often putting in the same amount of time digging for deals as "dealers." The ultimate buyers are people who invest less time in digging for deals themselves and are willing to get access for a high end card actually available for sale, even if its at a god forbid 10-15% premium.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by CardsMax

on items where they have the leverage to sell high, they're going to maximize their dollar

Absolutely true. It is all about who has the leverage. A seller of a T206 Wagner, yes; a 2023 Ohtani, not so much. Nothing new there, and a good reason why modern goes up and then crashes. Once the hype is over, the supply is ridiculously large relative to realistic demand, which is why the sellers start to hype nonsense like PSA 10 grades: of the 250,000 slabbed, only 7,500 are PSA 10. Wow, let me just rush right on out there to get 75 of them. There are still way more cards than anyone wants, and the 30,000 9s are indistinguishable from the 10s if you mixed them on a table with the labels covered.

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Many older customers especially those just getting into or back into the hobby need their mom or the ghost of their mom to snap them back to reality.

I think that goes for most people; been on a plane lately? I have a friend who is a flight attendant and she hates her job with a passion since the pandemic. People turn into big, whiny, nasty babies the moment they board.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

been flying a lot lately. Behavior and sense of entitlement on flights is absolutely insane. Rules apparently don't apply to almost anyone.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Absolutely true. It is all about who has the leverage. A seller of a T206 Wagner, yes; a 2023 Ohtani, not so much. Nothing new there, and a good reason why modern goes up and then crashes. Once the hype is over, the supply is ridiculously large relative to realistic demand, which is why the sellers start to hype nonsense like PSA 10 grades: of the 250,000 slabbed, only 7,500 are PSA 10. Wow, let me just rush right on out there to get 75 of them. There are still way more cards than anyone wants, and the 30,000 9s are indistinguishable from the 10s if you mixed them on a table with the labels covered.



I think that goes for most people; been on a plane lately? I have a friend who is a flight attendant and she hates her job with a passion since the pandemic. People turn into big, whiny, nasty babies the moment they board.

Quite true, Adam. As someone else mentioned, the sense of entitlement is just bewildering these days.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ocjack

I agree with Adam. I spent years attending and setting up at shows. I would walk around looking for cards on my want list, but I would always go through the dealers 1957 Topps commons. My time was rewarded by finding two Bakep error cards and paying pennies because the dealer classified them as commons. Not every dealer is aware of every possible card of value and if you have the time and the patience, you can take advantage of their lack of knowledge or maybe on a kinder note, their laziness in determing what they really had. And as a side-note as to the scarcity of the Bakep card - probably 15 years of shows and only found 2.

Lol, you just reminded me of one of the card show lessons I have taught my son and always seems to do me well (especially prior to the pandemic). If you see a dealer table with nothing but modern, take a look in their bulk card boxes. They likely have bought some older cards from a walk up or in a big collection and they likely have no clue on earth what they bought. I have grabbed many a gem from those tables for damn near pennies.

[hcv123]

I am really bothered by some of the gross generalizations that have been made in this thread. While in my experience - I understand there are some dealers that do business in a way that perpetuates some of the perceptions expressed in this thread- there are quite a few fair and reasonable dealers that conduct business with integrity.

Do auction houses get thrown under the bus for taking anywhere between 15 and 30+% of a consignment - even for the 90+% of items that DON'T sell for the "RECORD PRICES" they like to advertise? But dealers are called "lowballers" for offering the same 70-85% of fair market?

If you owned a premium example or rare card, would you be willing to sell it to anyone under market or would you be trying to get top dollar for it? Why is the expectation of a dealer any different?

Dealers have been part (Collectors being the other) of the backbone of this hobby for years.

I am told by others I have a reputation for fair pricing - I'm not giving stuff away, but I'm also not 2X last recent sale of a comparable card.

You want "deals" come to my booth (1034) and let's talk about the stuff that is readily available - I think you will be quite happy with the "deal". I have dealers regularly coming over and purchasing from me, so they must think I have "good deals"!

You want to buy the 2nd highest graded of 4 known examples of a complete 1968 Roberto Clemente bazooka box (or similar items - a number of which I will be offering)? Sorry, not going to be much "dealing" on that one. That said, you will likely be extremely excited at the opportunity to acquire such a rare item - even if you had to pay up for it!

You want to stop by and just talk baseball cards - come on by - I love sharing my passion for the hobby with others!

I will also be buying. trading and accepting select private consignments (NOT an auction - more price control and commissions as low as 7.5%) at the show. Contacting me in advance to set up an appointment or begin a discussion of what you have is recommended, if last year was any indication, I expect it to be an insanely busy show.

Howard Chasser
A Few of My Favorite Things

[Seven]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I am really bothered by some of the gross generalizations that have been made in this thread. While in my experience - I understand there are some dealers that do business in a way that perpetuates some of the perceptions expressed in this thread- there are quite a few fair and reasonable dealers that conduct business with integrity.

Do auction houses get thrown under the bus for taking anywhere between 15 and 30+% of a consignment - even for the 90+% of items that DON'T sell for the "RECORD PRICES" they like to advertise? But dealers are called "lowballers" for offering the same 70-85% of fair market?

If you owned a premium example or rare card, would you be willing to sell it to anyone under market or would you be trying to get top dollar for it? Why is the expectation of a dealer any different?

Dealers have been part (Collectors being the other) of the backbone of this hobby for years.

I am told by others I have a reputation for fair pricing - I'm not giving stuff away, but I'm also not 2X last recent sale of a comparable card.

You want "deals" come to my booth (1034) and let's talk about the stuff that is readily available - I think you will be quite happy with the "deal". I have dealers regularly coming over and purchasing from me, so they must think I have "good deals"!

You want to buy the 2nd highest graded of 4 known examples of a complete 1968 Roberto Clemente bazooka box (or similar items - a number of which I will be offering)? Sorry, not going to be much "dealing" on that one. That said, you will likely be extremely excited at the opportunity to acquire such a rare item - even if you had to pay up for it!

You want to stop by and just talk baseball cards - come on by - I love sharing my passion for the hobby with others!

I will also be buying. trading and accepting select private consignments (NOT an auction - more price control and commissions as low as 7.5%) at the show. Contacting me in advance to set up an appointment or begin a discussion of what you have is recommended, if last year was any indication, I expect it to be an insanely busy show.

Howard Chasser
A Few of My Favorite Things

Howard,

I understand why you would be bothered, I've always felt your prices were fair, I happily bought from you at one of the Philly shows a couple of years back, we had a nice conversation too about the 1959 Bazooka series.

Not that I am as an experienced of a collector as some of the other members of the forum, but what I will say is the most pleasant interactions I have ever had with dealers, were ones that have been in the hobby for a long time. I don't want to generalize, but a lot of the younger dealers, ones in their mid 20s for an example, have often rubbed me the wrong way, immediately saying how much they are "in" on a card, or using almost used car-salesmen lingo about how I'm never going to get or see "x at this price, ever again." This could just be me though.

I'm looking forward to seeing you at any future shows, talking the hobby, and hopefully making a purchase, again.

- James

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

An article from SCD, November 1979.

Great post Steve. So, even in the Good’ol days of yore, articles were written about prices and the hobby was about money with cards appreciating and dealers looking to get top prices.

Those who say that the hobby used to not be about money/flipping/investment are not telling the full story. I started collecting in 1982 and everyone had price guides, trades only happened if the values were relatively equal, everyone opened boxes looking for the rookies and chucked the commons, and price was a (if not) the primary consideration behind what someone bought or sold.

While much has changed in the “hobby”, it’s still largely the same.

[brass_rat]

Exactly. . Even hobby publications in the 1960s regularly commented on rapid price appreciation.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Great post Steve. So, even in the Good’ol days of yore, articles were written about prices and the hobby was about money with cards appreciating and dealers looking to get top prices.

While much has changed in the “hobby”, it’s still largely the same.

[notfast]

Rare stuff will be priced high as it should be. It’s on the buyer and seller to work out something both are happy with, but it benefits both when there’s a starting price, even if it’s high.

Less rare stuff that is in demand will be all over the place, like every show.

[The Detroit Collector]

Old vintage has been overpriced for a while now. Last year I only walked away with one card at the national because of the prices.

That being said, you can find good deals. I did find an Old Judge Hugh Duffy at a good price. Its faded and in an old SCG slab, but still a great card non the less.

My advice would be to walk around and hit every table. Have a notebook and write down the cards that catch your eye and the price. After you did a walk of the floor, sit down somewhere and see what cards in your notebook seem to have the best deal.

Also, if you can wait, Sunday prices are more reasonable.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Old vintage has been overpriced for a while now. Last year I only walked away with one card at the national because of the prices.

My advice would be to walk around and hit every table. Have a notebook and write down the cards that catch your eye and the price. After you did a walk of the floor, sit down somewhere and see what cards in your notebook seem to have the best deal.

Also, if you can wait, Sunday prices are more reasonable.

... That hurried panting messyhandful o'cash-flashing late Sunday afternoon ambush pleading , just as the packing-up gets serious , works sometimes. But the National Regulars uhhhh , I dunno. Hi , Dan.
..
,

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

... That hurried panting messyhandful o'cash-flashing late Sunday afternoon ambush pleading
,

like shooting fish in a barrel

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

My advice would be to walk around and hit every table. Have a notebook and write down the cards that catch your eye and the price. After you did a walk of the floor, sit down somewhere and see what cards in your notebook seem to have the best deal.

Also, if you can wait, Sunday prices are more reasonable.

And by the time you get back to those tables, the good deals will be long gone. If you see something good at the show for a good price, you have to pounce on it or it will sell to someone else. I've made that mistake more than once because I didn't want to pay for something too soon on the first day.

[Yoda]

Having worked both sides of the aisle at the Nat'l, I would only offer 2 nuggets:
1. When buying something special, the fatal line is, "Is that the best you can do?". Instead throw up a number less than what you might eventually be willing to pay. The dealer might then knock something off and then the true negotiating begins and who knows you might get the card.
2. This is just a personal dislike. I can hardly be polite when a card bro slithers around, opens his shinny card briefcase, drops a PSA 10 Zion Williams card, 1 of 25, jockstrap swatch and says something to effect that he could let me have it for the "distressed" price of $90,000. Of course, he hasn't even looked once at my cases that are nothing but pre-War and vintage. Short discussion.