Card doctoring video

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The denial and contrarian and counterfactual bullshit on this thread top anything I have seen yet on Net 54.

Then you're obviously staying away from the watercooler section

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Then you're obviously staying away from the watercooler section

Sometimes it is essential for maintaining ones sanity

[Johnny630]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQV9aYNzkg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQV9aYNzkg

Dave F.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave F. Wow.

I think he is wrong on saying he is linked as a Shill Bidder for Mastro...to my knowledge that is Not True.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I think he is wrong on saying he is linked as a Shill Bidder for Mastro...to my knowledge that is Not True.

It's been too long to remember the details, but:

"Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals." (https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/)

Seems that Forman's name was out there, but Forman alleged that Mastro used Foreman's account without his knowing to place said shill bids when he filed his suit against Mastro.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's been too long to remember the details, but:

"Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals." (https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/)

Seems that Forman's name was out there, but Forman alleged that Mastro used Foreman's account without his knowing to place said shill bids when he filed his suit against Mastro.

That's the way I remember it...allegedly he used Forman's bidder number without his consent.

[Seven]

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

It's done all the time. There are countless sheet cut cards out there. I believe the general consensus is that sheet cut cards should only receive an authentic rating, and I believe the major TPGs will not officially give a number grade to a card they find is sheet cut (but see exception with SGC and T204 Ramlys recently), but I can't speak for anyone but myself really.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

This is not my opinion but what I have actually done and continue to do. I have posted many times I have cut up a LOT of full sheets. I also make it clear when I sell those cards they are sheet cut.

What I have noticed is that even though I say when I sell sheet cut card or cards I know or believe to be altered when the buyer resells them they ALWAYS forget to note the card(s) are altered/sheet cut.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This is not my opinion but what I have actually done and continue to do. I have posted many times I have cut up a LOT of full sheets. I also make it clear when I sell those cards they are sheet cut.

What I have noticed is that even though I say when I sell sheet cut card or cards I know or believe to be altered when the buyer resells them they ALWAYS forget to note the card(s) are altered/sheet cut.

You can only control your own sale.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

I would not consider those legit, I guess. Since we're talking hypotheticals, suppose someone found Goudey sheets and the original cutting machinery stashed away somewhere tomorrow. Hard for me to accept that a card cut in 2023 should be regarded the same as a 1930s card. Would it have value, of course, but the circumstances should be disclosed. And if that's the case, via Socratic method I think one reaches the same conclusion for any subsequent cut.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

Anyone can buy the same cutters used at the factory. I can't remember who because it was a long time ago but someone did actually buy the actual blades used from one of the major manufacturers before.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

It's no different from trimming if not disclosed. This is how the majority of vintage PSA 10s were born. And I agree with Mathis in that this is also likely where Fogel's black diamond PSA 10 52T Mantle came from.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

Selling a sheet cut card cut by a scammer years later without disclosure is also fraud. If it wasn't material, there would be no reason not to cop to it when selling - and yet they rarely do.

Like trimming, I think it's bad. Ruining items for profit is not the act of a collector but a profiteer. It sucks when it turns out the cool miscut on eBay one buys was actually made by some asshole at home.

It sucks more when they are historical sheets, unique or nearly unique and instructive about the history and process of the card creation. A majority of T card uncut material that survived into the profiteer era has already been destroyed or further cut up (T204, the alleged Wagner/Plank panel, T25 panels, etc.). The interest of profiteers and hobbyists is fundamentally opposed here. The tiny bits remaining are only protected, at most, until their owners pass and the sheets sell to be destroyed. It really sucks when history is destroyed for a few bucks.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by G1911

Selling a sheet cut card cut by a scammer years later without disclosure is also fraud. If it wasn't material, there would be no reason not to cop to it when selling - and yet they rarely do.

Like trimming, I think it's bad. Ruining items for profit is not the act of a collector but a profiteer. It sucks when it turns out the cool miscut on eBay one buys was actually made by some asshole at home.

It sucks more when they are historical sheets, unique or nearly unique and instructive about the history and process of the card creation. A majority of T card uncut material that survived into the profiteer era has already been destroyed or further cut up (T204, the alleged Wagner/Plank panel, T25 panels, etc.). The interest of profiteers and hobbyists is fundamentally opposed here. The tiny bits remaining are only protected, at most, until their owners pass and the sheets sell to be destroyed. It really sucks when history is destroyed for a few bucks.

I'm vaguely familiar with the Wagner/Plank Sheet, but do you have a link to the post that summarizes this story. Also correct me if I'm wrong, did Rosen ever find an uncut sheet of 52 topps and then cut them himself? I can't remember. Thank you,

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQV9aYNzkg

I like that they call out the people that everyone gets upset if you observe their deeds. Their enemies have a really hard time citing specific instances of their claims to fact being actually wrong.

But this is a good example of why SCR is so immature and insufferable at the same time at the 9 minute mark.

“I’ll tell you something right now, if this guy ever approached me at a card show or anywhere else, he’d get dealt with real quick [cuts to video clip of 2 men shooting sub machine guns into a store]”

Really? Death threats? Hard to claim the moral high ground while implying you’ll shoot everyone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I like that they call out the people that everyone gets upset if you observe their deeds. Their enemies have a really hard time citing specific instances of their claims to fact being actually wrong.

But this is a good example of why SCR is so immature and insufferable at the same time at the 9 minute mark.

“I’ll tell you something right now, if this guy ever approached me at a card show or anywhere else, he’d get dealt with real quick [cuts to video clip of 2 men shooting sub machine guns into a store]”

Really? Death threats? Hard to claim the moral high ground while implying you’ll shoot everyone.

A calmer, restrained version of SCR could be a good thing, but it's not in the cards, pun intended.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by G1911

I like that they call out the people that everyone gets upset if you observe their deeds. Their enemies have a really hard time citing specific instances of their claims to fact being actually wrong.

But this is a good example of why SCR is so immature and insufferable at the same time at the 9 minute mark.

“I’ll tell you something right now, if this guy ever approached me at a card show or anywhere else, he’d get dealt with real quick [cuts to video clip of 2 men shooting sub machine guns into a store]”

Really? Death threats? Hard to claim the moral high ground while implying you’ll shoot everyone.

Those guys give off serious “i was picked on a lot as a kid, but I’ll show them” vibes. Too bad the good they do is so catastrophically overshadowed by what asshats they are.