Card doctoring video

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

[Rhotchkiss]

It’s a psa 10 bc it sits in a psa 10 flip. But it’s still altered

Your fact pattern is not fraud for 3 reasons: (1) the grandson has not tried to realize financial gain (he has not tried to sell it, (2) submitting it to psa alone is not fraud, and (3) he did not know it had been altered

If the grandson new it was altered, submitted it to psa and got a numerical grade and then sold it for financial gain, knowing it was altered, and not disclosing it, then it’s fraud.

You are arguing with several people who have gone to law school and either actively practice law or have practiced law. This is like you telling a radiologist how to read an X-ray. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the fact pattern I have laid out meets all of the elements of fraud and fraud is a crime.

And with that, I wish you the best.

Ben, it is not fraud if the seller discloses it - there is no misrepresentation or omission/concealment (attempt to deceive).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s a psa 10 bc it sits in a psa 10 flip. But it’s still altered

Your fact pattern is not fraud for 3 reasons: (1) the grandson has not tried to realize financial gain (he has not tried to sell it, (2) submitting it to psa alone is not fraud, and (3) he did not know it had been altered

If the grandson new it was altered, submitted it to psa and got a numerical grade and then sold it for financial gain, knowing it was altered, and not disclosing it, then it’s fraud.

You are arguing with several people who have gone to law school and either actively practice law or have practiced law. This is like you telling a radiologist how to read an X-ray. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the fact pattern I have laid out meets all of the elements of fraud and fraud is a crime.

And with that, I wish you the best.

Ben, it is not fraud if the seller discloses it - there is no misrepresentation or omission (attempt to deceive).

1 and 2 are to me the same point, but I agree with your analysis. No sale and no intent, accepting the hypothetical at face value.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

Unlike some very good board members I am NOT a lawyer, but I believe from my reading fraud is a crime of knowledge and intent. Unless I'm mistaken you can't accidentally or unknowingly commit fraud.