Card doctoring video

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

When you sold that card that you believe to be altered in the numeric slab, did you sell it for the price of an Authentic Altered slab, or did you sell it for what the market says it's worth?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When you sold that card that you believe to be altered in the numeric slab, did you sell it for the price of an Authentic Altered slab, or did you sell it for what the market says it's worth?

I listed it in the auction section so it sold for the highest bid. There was no believing it was altered it was 100% altered.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I listed it in the auction section so it sold for the highest bid. There was no believing it was altered it was 100% altered.

OK, where did the hammer price land then? Closer to what the number on the slab said it's worth, or for what an Authentic Altered card is worth? Unless it was a 1 or 2, in which case it wouldn't even matter.

My point is, the market doesn't care about your determination or that of anyone else's. It cares about the number on the slab.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When you sold that card that you believe to be altered in the numeric slab, did you sell it for the price of an Authentic Altered slab, or did you sell it for what the market says it's worth?

if it's disclosed, what it sells for is irrelevant.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

if it's disclosed, what it sells for is irrelevant.

Irrelevant with respect to the question of whether or not fraud has been committed, I agree. But my point was that a seller disclosing that they believe the card to be trimmed has no bearing on its actual market value. The bidders are still going to bid based on the number on the flip.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Irrelevant with respect to the question of whether or not fraud has been committed, I agree. But my point was that a seller disclosing that they believe the card to be trimmed has no bearing on its actual market value. The bidders are still going to bid based on the number on the flip.

Well there you really are into a matter of opinion, but if an aggrieved buyer wouldn't have paid the same price for a trimmed card if it had been disclosed, that would be the point in a legal proceeding, I believe. NOT whether or not someone else would've paid the same amount. Basically if I am the hypothetical buyer you are defrauding ME, not the market.

[Casey2296]

All these defenders of altered cards remind me of Chinese knock off salesmen.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Irrelevant with respect to the question of whether or not fraud has been committed, I agree. But my point was that a seller disclosing that they believe the card to be trimmed has no bearing on its actual market value. The bidders are still going to bid based on the number on the flip.

As a follow up thought. If the market will pay the same for a disclosed alteration if it is in a graded holder then why would you NOT disclose?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As a follow up thought. If the market will pay the same for a disclosed alteration if it is in a graded holder then why would you NOT disclose?

You and I both know why even if Travis doesn't. Because it has the potential to drive down the price, perhaps significantly. Just think, this whole scandal could have been avoided if Brent and everyone else had just disclosed cards they knew to be altered. There's an obvious reason they hide it. Look at all the money Brent could have saved on restitution!! And for that matter, why were people returning trimmed cards in droves if it's irrelevant?? Why was the FBI even investigating and issuing subpoenas? Why was Brent scared shitless of going to jail such that he was buying back cards left right and center to position himself better? Why is PSA still rejecting cards as trimmed, I mean who gives a fuck, right?

Travis I agree with you there are a lot of people who don't care. But especially with vintage collectors, I think there is still a substantial group that does, and who would not knowingly pay market price for a card identified as altered. Therefore, alteration is still a material fact.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By the way, I just looked at the sentencing memorandum Mastro himself submitted. Yep, it too discusses the Wagner, adding to the incontrovertible proof that it was indeed part of the case and what he was charged with and pleaded to, although not (as I have acknowledged throughout) the primary focus.

Although the vast majority of the offense conduct concerns shill bidding, Bill has also accepted responsibility
for his role in the sales of two authentic items whose condition or appearance was altered. First, Bill
acknowledged having personally altered one item, the T-206 Honus Wagner card, by cutting its side borders.
(Plea Agr. (Doc. No. 99) at 12-13). Bill voluntarily waived the statute of limitations to acknowledge this
conduct. Although the Wagner card was authentic, Bill was not honest about the alteration when he sold it and
for years afterward. Bill has now fully disclosed and accepted responsibility for the alteration, and the Wagner
card remains one of the most valued items of sports memorabilia, having resold since these allegations became
widely publicized for its highest price ever.