WW3 Please SAY NO!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Well, prior to the western sponsored coup in Ukraine, Russia got along just fine with neighbors in Ukraine.
Deals and promises were broken. NATO continued and continues to move east. But Putin is just expected to ignore those, say no big deal?
Who I believe is still your current president who is calling the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES4jslRzQwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XqgNOvFMvg

Western coup in Ukraine? Please explain. According to your previous posts, Ukraine is playing the West.

Your definition of "Russia getting along just fine with its neighbors in Ukraine" means Russia first seizing Crimea, then 4 more oblasts. Maybe from your, and Putin's, point of view, that's getting along just fine. To Ukrainian citizens who have been invaded and bombed relentlessly, not so much.

Irv, usually you are forthcoming in your debates. I've asked you two specific questions above that you continue to dodge. Why?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Western coup in Ukraine? Please explain. According to your previous posts, Ukraine is playing the West.

Your definition of "Russia getting along just fine with its neighbors in Ukraine" means Russia first seizing Crimea, then 4 more oblasts. Maybe from your, and Putin's, point of view, that's getting along just fine. To Ukrainian citizens who have been invaded and bombed relentlessly, not so much.

Irv, usually you are forthcoming in your debates. I've asked you two specific questions above that you continue to dodge. Why?

Because your believes, imo, are silly. The U.S. rebuilding schools and infrastructure. LOL. The middles east is a mess due to the fake WMD narrative. Remember that one?
Again, you're being told one side of the story, not being told what Zelenskyy is doing to his own people.
Like I said earlier, if Putin wanted to destroy Ukraine, he would have done so by now.
113 BILLION is pocket change to you?
Well I would say, spending countless millions to conduct a coup in a foreign country and overthrow their govt and implement an unelected one to spend another couple billion preparing them for a war with a super power where we spend a couple hundred billion more which causes/leads to hyper inflation on energy, food and what not is a very irresponsible endeavor. Especially when America has things that could use that money and attention to HELP people instead of peddling death and despair.

And I have no idea if Putin will stop as you don't. To suggest otherwise is just speculation. Will the U.S., especially the warmongering democrats stop raiding other countries? I highly doubt it as there is far too much money to be had in the war machine.
And you somehow think, despite the no new wars anywhere for 4 yrs, you think this war will stop WW3, not start it?

No, your right, I am a contrarian and I don't believe any of this nor what our media is spinning. If they say one thing, I think the opposite. I can't help it based on what lies we have been spewed to for years now. But I'm suppose to believe this war is for a good cause, the media is now telling the truth, Putin is the bad guy and Zelenskyy is the saint?
Stand with Ukraine!!! LOL.

[irv]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think I get what you mean, but this is where language needs to be precise. Putin clearly chose to start the war. Ukraine did not attack Russia, Russia invaded. It didn't happen in a vacuum though, which I imagine is your point. The US appears to have backed the 2014 coup, which sparked Russia to take the Crimea just days later, to install a more friendly regime on Russia's border. The eastern provinces have been trying to secure independence for years and western Ukraine has been using force and violence to keep them attached. Russia, obviously, does not want a US client state on its border. The US would never allow a Russian client state on our border. It is much more complicated than a couple sentences, but the main narrative likes to skip over the entire history and paint a rather absurdist picture of simple evil incarnate, as we do every single time we are at war or proxy war with another state. We have seen this play out over and over and over and over.




If we are in favor of a people's right to rule themselves, we must be for Ukraine but also in favor of the east being able to choose for themselves as well. I find it difficult to find a sensible philosophy that means the US should bankroll or fight Ukraine's war of defense, but Ukraine is allowed to do whatever it wants to provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine. Every time the US has a painful go of it, we all renounce the war we once supported and say that the US should stop being the world police. And then every time something happens, we say we need to fight it or fund it. And then the cycle repeats itself. This sure feels like another loop of this circle at this point, but time will tell.

I know not what to really make of this war, accurate information is difficult to find in the middle of a conflict and most of the media is simply printing Ukraine's propaganda; no nations propaganda about a war it is in has ever in world history been particularly accurate information. It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. Short of using WMD, there is little risk of further escalation, the west is already bankrolling and supplying the war at large scale. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

Exactly. Putin was provoked and he is continuing to be poked.
Peace agreements which he has tried to broker now and before the war have fallen on deaf ears.
The U.S. will not stop until they get their wish. I just hope troops and citizens around the world don't die needlessly because of these war mongering assholes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Exiled Thucydides knew
All that a speech can say
About Democracy,
And what dictators do,
The elderly rubbish they talk
To an apathetic grave;
Analysed all in his book,
The enlightenment driven away,
The habit-forming pain,
Mismanagement and grief:
We must suffer them all again.

There will be massive death and suffering and economic devastation and eventually the war will end and we will return to the status quo ante or something close. What a lame race we are.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

No, your right, I am a contrarian and I don't believe any of this nor what our media is spinning. If they say one thing, I think the opposite. I can't help it based on what lies we have been spewed to for years now. But I'm suppose to believe this war is for a good cause, the media is now telling the truth, Putin is the bad guy and Zelenskyy is the saint?
Stand with Ukraine!!! LOL.

Right, your mind is locked into being contrarian. It doesn't really matter how smart someone is, if they've surrendered their ability (or desire) to think for themselves, rather than being stuck into a knee-jerk belief system that has them believing, or in your case, disbelieving, everything.

I will ask for a third or fourth time: Do you believe Russia is purposely bombing civilian targets, to kill and make miserable as many Ukrainian citizens as possible? I really don't expect an answer, because it's become obvious my question is threatening to you and your thought process.

You keep mentioning how unfair Ukraine has been to some of its citizens, while evading the fact Putin is trying to bomb them into oblivion. The reason Putin hasn't completely destroyed Ukraine by now (with tactical nukes) is because NATO and the USA stand in the way.

By the way, Biden isn't my guy and I disagree with him on most things. I didn't vote for him. But unlike partisans, I can give credit for good policy when it's due. The concept is known as thinking for myself. One party isn't always right, or wrong, and neither is the MSM.

Defeating Putin's expansion in Europe is essential.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right, your mind is locked into being contrarian. It doesn't really matter how smart someone is, if they've surrendered their ability (or desire) to think for themselves, rather than being stuck into a knee-jerk belief system that has them believing, or in your case, disbelieving, everything.

I will ask for a third or fourth time: Do you believe Russia is purposely bombing civilian targets, to kill and make miserable as many Ukrainian citizens as possible? I really don't expect an answer, because it's become obvious my question is threatening to you and your thought process.

You keep mentioning how unfair Ukraine has been to some of its citizens, while evading the fact Putin is trying to bomb them into oblivion. The reason Putin hasn't completely destroyed Ukraine by now (with tactical nukes) is because NATO and the USA stand in the way.

By the way, Biden isn't my guy and I disagree with him on most things. I didn't vote for him. But unlike partisans, I can give credit for good policy when it's due. The concept is known as thinking for myself. One party isn't always right, or wrong, and neither is the MSM.

Defeating Putin's expansion in Europe is essential.

Putin has been very open about his Peter the Great fantasy. And he'll be stopped inevitably, Russia just isn't that strong militarily, but at a terrible human cost.