WW3 Please SAY NO!

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If the purpose was first strike, we wouldn't like it. If the purpose was defensive, like air defense systems, it wouldn't matter since the USA does not reserve the right to invade Mexico.

NATO is a defensive organization. Proof of that is that NATO hasn't sent troops or air forces into combat. They have only provided munitions for Ukraine to defend their own territory. If NATO was an aggressive force, they'd be flying sorties over Moscow daily.



Are you saying Russia is NOT bombing hospitals, schools, and other civilians targets like power plants? Because Putin himself is bragging about making life as miserable as possible on Ukrainian civilians.

Look, I agree with you about the mismanagement of the Covid situation, beginning with its origin. But the MSM is not ALWAYS wrong. When Putin himself brags about the devastation his army is wreaking on Ukraine, it seems like quite a stretch to say that all the many various news outlets are wrong when they report on it.




How familiar are you with Wagner and its origins? It seems a bit ridiculous to say Putin is sending Wagner into Ukraine because he is so outraged with "Nazis." To Russia, de-Nazification is just another term for killing people and stealing their land.



Russians who speak out against Putin and his regime are plummeting and splatting by the dozens, and that is fact. Actually happening. But you're more concerned with an alleged threat to one person.

So, my question to you is this: Do you believe Russia has been deliberately bombing civilian targets in Ukraine, as Putin says?

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.

Putin did start this. First step was in 2014 when he annexed Crimea. Now he's trying to take several more bites. It has become a proxy war against Russia that Putin started.

Suppose we did as you suggest. Let Putin take Ukraine. Do you think he would stop there, Neville Chamberlain? Or would he then move into Moldova, the Baltics, and maybe Poland? And we'd just sit back and think it was a safer world, with Putin "de-Nazifying" eastern Europe?

Originally Posted by irv

113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest?

It's a fraction of our defense budget. Usually, our military spending doesn't accomplish much. The money we are spending now is an attempt to maintain a stable Europe. Putin needs to be stopped.

Originally Posted by irv

Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs. Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?

Hunter is a criminal, the USA supports various labs, including the one in Wuhan, unfortunately. I'm not aware of the USA invading and annexing land from other countries recently. I'm aware of the USA building schools and hospitals, but not intentionally blowing them up.

Originally Posted by irv

You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.

We are preventing WW3 by nipping it in the bud, so to speak. What about "appeasement doesn't work" don't you understand? Look, I get it. You're a contrarian. Government is always dishonest, MSM always lies, things are never as they seem. You are being played by your own bias.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe Putin is purposely attacking civilian targets in Ukraine to cause as much pain as possible on the people there, as Putin brags?

And I have another question. If Putin is successful in capturing Ukraine, or parts of it, do you think he stops there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I had a contrarian friend in law school who claimed the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Berliners from fleeing east. Saying Putin did not start this war reminds me of that.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Putin did start this. First step was in 2014 when he annexed Crimea. Now he's trying to take several more bites. It has become a proxy war against Russia that Putin started.

Suppose we did as you suggest. Let Putin take Ukraine. Do you think he would stop there, Neville Chamberlain? Or would he then move into Moldova, the Baltics, and maybe Poland? And we'd just sit back and think it was a safer world, with Putin "de-Nazifying" eastern Europe?



It's a fraction of our defense budget. Usually, our military spending doesn't accomplish much. The money we are spending now is an attempt to maintain a stable Europe. Putin needs to be stopped.





Hunter is a criminal, the USA supports various labs, including the one in Wuhan, unfortunately. I'm not aware of the USA invading and annexing land from other countries recently. I'm aware of the USA building schools and hospitals, but not intentionally blowing them up.



We are preventing WW3 by nipping it in the bud, so to speak. What about "appeasement doesn't work" don't you understand? Look, I get it. You're a contrarian. Government is always dishonest, MSM always lies, things are never as they seem. You are being played by your own bias.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe Putin is purposely attacking civilian targets in Ukraine to cause as much pain as possible on the people there, as Putin brags?

And I have another question. If Putin is successful in capturing Ukraine, or parts of it, do you think he stops there?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had a contrarian friend in law school who claimed the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Berliners from fleeing east. Saying Putin did not start this war reminds me of that.

Well, prior to the western sponsored coup in Ukraine, Russia got along just fine with neighbors in Ukraine.
Deals and promises were broken. NATO continued and continues to move east. But Putin is just expected to ignore those, say no big deal?
Who I believe is still your current president who is calling the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES4jslRzQwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XqgNOvFMvg

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Well, prior to the western sponsored coup in Ukraine, Russia got along just fine with neighbors in Ukraine.
Deals and promises were broken. NATO continued and continues to move east. But Putin is just expected to ignore those, say no big deal?
Who I believe is still your current president who is calling the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES4jslRzQwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XqgNOvFMvg

Western coup in Ukraine? Please explain. According to your previous posts, Ukraine is playing the West.

Your definition of "Russia getting along just fine with its neighbors in Ukraine" means Russia first seizing Crimea, then 4 more oblasts. Maybe from your, and Putin's, point of view, that's getting along just fine. To Ukrainian citizens who have been invaded and bombed relentlessly, not so much.

Irv, usually you are forthcoming in your debates. I've asked you two specific questions above that you continue to dodge. Why?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Western coup in Ukraine? Please explain. According to your previous posts, Ukraine is playing the West.

Your definition of "Russia getting along just fine with its neighbors in Ukraine" means Russia first seizing Crimea, then 4 more oblasts. Maybe from your, and Putin's, point of view, that's getting along just fine. To Ukrainian citizens who have been invaded and bombed relentlessly, not so much.

Irv, usually you are forthcoming in your debates. I've asked you two specific questions above that you continue to dodge. Why?

Because your believes, imo, are silly. The U.S. rebuilding schools and infrastructure. LOL. The middles east is a mess due to the fake WMD narrative. Remember that one?
Again, you're being told one side of the story, not being told what Zelenskyy is doing to his own people.
Like I said earlier, if Putin wanted to destroy Ukraine, he would have done so by now.
113 BILLION is pocket change to you?
Well I would say, spending countless millions to conduct a coup in a foreign country and overthrow their govt and implement an unelected one to spend another couple billion preparing them for a war with a super power where we spend a couple hundred billion more which causes/leads to hyper inflation on energy, food and what not is a very irresponsible endeavor. Especially when America has things that could use that money and attention to HELP people instead of peddling death and despair.

And I have no idea if Putin will stop as you don't. To suggest otherwise is just speculation. Will the U.S., especially the warmongering democrats stop raiding other countries? I highly doubt it as there is far too much money to be had in the war machine.
And you somehow think, despite the no new wars anywhere for 4 yrs, you think this war will stop WW3, not start it?

No, your right, I am a contrarian and I don't believe any of this nor what our media is spinning. If they say one thing, I think the opposite. I can't help it based on what lies we have been spewed to for years now. But I'm suppose to believe this war is for a good cause, the media is now telling the truth, Putin is the bad guy and Zelenskyy is the saint?
Stand with Ukraine!!! LOL.

[irv]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think I get what you mean, but this is where language needs to be precise. Putin clearly chose to start the war. Ukraine did not attack Russia, Russia invaded. It didn't happen in a vacuum though, which I imagine is your point. The US appears to have backed the 2014 coup, which sparked Russia to take the Crimea just days later, to install a more friendly regime on Russia's border. The eastern provinces have been trying to secure independence for years and western Ukraine has been using force and violence to keep them attached. Russia, obviously, does not want a US client state on its border. The US would never allow a Russian client state on our border. It is much more complicated than a couple sentences, but the main narrative likes to skip over the entire history and paint a rather absurdist picture of simple evil incarnate, as we do every single time we are at war or proxy war with another state. We have seen this play out over and over and over and over.




If we are in favor of a people's right to rule themselves, we must be for Ukraine but also in favor of the east being able to choose for themselves as well. I find it difficult to find a sensible philosophy that means the US should bankroll or fight Ukraine's war of defense, but Ukraine is allowed to do whatever it wants to provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine. Every time the US has a painful go of it, we all renounce the war we once supported and say that the US should stop being the world police. And then every time something happens, we say we need to fight it or fund it. And then the cycle repeats itself. This sure feels like another loop of this circle at this point, but time will tell.

I know not what to really make of this war, accurate information is difficult to find in the middle of a conflict and most of the media is simply printing Ukraine's propaganda; no nations propaganda about a war it is in has ever in world history been particularly accurate information. It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. Short of using WMD, there is little risk of further escalation, the west is already bankrolling and supplying the war at large scale. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

Exactly. Putin was provoked and he is continuing to be poked.
Peace agreements which he has tried to broker now and before the war have fallen on deaf ears.
The U.S. will not stop until they get their wish. I just hope troops and citizens around the world don't die needlessly because of these war mongering assholes.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

No, your right, I am a contrarian and I don't believe any of this nor what our media is spinning. If they say one thing, I think the opposite. I can't help it based on what lies we have been spewed to for years now. But I'm suppose to believe this war is for a good cause, the media is now telling the truth, Putin is the bad guy and Zelenskyy is the saint?
Stand with Ukraine!!! LOL.

Right, your mind is locked into being contrarian. It doesn't really matter how smart someone is, if they've surrendered their ability (or desire) to think for themselves, rather than being stuck into a knee-jerk belief system that has them believing, or in your case, disbelieving, everything.

I will ask for a third or fourth time: Do you believe Russia is purposely bombing civilian targets, to kill and make miserable as many Ukrainian citizens as possible? I really don't expect an answer, because it's become obvious my question is threatening to you and your thought process.

You keep mentioning how unfair Ukraine has been to some of its citizens, while evading the fact Putin is trying to bomb them into oblivion. The reason Putin hasn't completely destroyed Ukraine by now (with tactical nukes) is because NATO and the USA stand in the way.

By the way, Biden isn't my guy and I disagree with him on most things. I didn't vote for him. But unlike partisans, I can give credit for good policy when it's due. The concept is known as thinking for myself. One party isn't always right, or wrong, and neither is the MSM.

Defeating Putin's expansion in Europe is essential.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Had my dates wrong, never mind, but I still believe Putin is clearly the aggressor here and any legitimate concerns could have been addressed diplomatically..

[G1911]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

I think I get what you mean, but this is where language needs to be precise. Putin clearly chose to start the war. Ukraine did not attack Russia, Russia invaded. It didn't happen in a vacuum though, which I imagine is your point. The US appears to have backed the 2014 coup, which sparked Russia to take the Crimea just days later, to install a more friendly regime on Russia's border. The eastern provinces have been trying to secure independence for years and western Ukraine has been using force and violence to keep them attached. Russia, obviously, does not want a US client state on its border. The US would never allow a Russian client state on our border. It is much more complicated than a couple sentences, but the main narrative likes to skip over the entire history and paint a rather absurdist picture of simple evil incarnate, as we do every single time we are at war or proxy war with another state. We have seen this play out over and over and over and over.




If we are in favor of a people's right to rule themselves, we must be for Ukraine but also in favor of the east being able to choose for themselves as well. I find it difficult to find a sensible philosophy that means the US should bankroll or fight Ukraine's war of defense, but Ukraine is allowed to do whatever it wants to provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine. Every time the US has a painful go of it, we all renounce the war we once supported and say that the US should stop being the world police. And then every time something happens, we say we need to fight it or fund it. And then the cycle repeats itself. This sure feels like another loop of this circle at this point, but time will tell.

I know not what to really make of this war, accurate information is difficult to find in the middle of a conflict and most of the media is simply printing Ukraine's propaganda; no nations propaganda about a war it is in has ever in world history been particularly accurate information. It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. Short of using WMD, there is little risk of further escalation, the west is already bankrolling and supplying the war at large scale. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by G1911

It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

I agree there is far more at play.....and why did Ukraine have all those secret bio-labs? I think our government is really freaking out they were exposed......and all of a sudden this past week, Congress unanimously decided to agree Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab, after 3 years of denial.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right, your mind is locked into being contrarian. It doesn't really matter how smart someone is, if they've surrendered their ability (or desire) to think for themselves, rather than being stuck into a knee-jerk belief system that has them believing, or in your case, disbelieving, everything.

I will ask for a third or fourth time: Do you believe Russia is purposely bombing civilian targets, to kill and make miserable as many Ukrainian citizens as possible? I really don't expect an answer, because it's become obvious my question is threatening to you and your thought process.

You keep mentioning how unfair Ukraine has been to some of its citizens, while evading the fact Putin is trying to bomb them into oblivion. The reason Putin hasn't completely destroyed Ukraine by now (with tactical nukes) is because NATO and the USA stand in the way.

By the way, Biden isn't my guy and I disagree with him on most things. I didn't vote for him. But unlike partisans, I can give credit for good policy when it's due. The concept is known as thinking for myself. One party isn't always right, or wrong, and neither is the MSM.

Defeating Putin's expansion in Europe is essential.

I did answer above, in a roundabout way, however, but I guess you missed that?
Of course Putin is bombing areas, that's what usually happens in wars, to starve people out, etc. but I don't believe for one second it is anything like our media is portraying.
Here, watch this vid and pay particular attention at the 50 second or so point. This person, who ever he is (NATO/U.S. general?) is shocked and dumbfounded this journalist knows so much, knows the truth.
Did you see this on the evening news?
https://youtu.be/SKUtg-4BxMY

Like I said earlier or alluded too, there is something else going on here, something else that we will likely never know?
Joe hasn't been to your border in 2 yrs and apparently can't find Ohio on a map either, but he sure has no problem finding and flying to Ukraine whenever he wants?
Regardless, all this back and forth is futile. Neither you or I will ever fully, 100% know what is truly going on but I do know one thing, which many choose to ignore, is the fact that the U.S. has started more wars than any other nation on earth, and it is not even close.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by irv

Here, watch this vid and pay particular attention at the 50 second or so point. This person, who ever he is (NATO/U.S. general?) is shocked and dumbfounded this journalist knows so much, knows the truth.
Did you see this on the evening news?
https://youtu.be/SKUtg-4BxMY

That’s John Kirby. When he was an active duty Rear Admiral in the US Navy. He retired from the Navy in late 2015. So, at minimum 7-8 years ago. Cool? I didn’t watch most of the video because I assume these imbecile amateur talking heads left that context out. Keeps the suckers thinking it happened recently apparently.

Not coincidentally, the Russian embassy account posted the video cited by whoever the guys are in the video two days ago.

Color me surprised. Right up there with Russian media featuring Tucker Carlson.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

......and all of a sudden this past week, Congress unanimously decided to agree Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab, after 3 years of denial.

That was the Department Of Energy, there are 213 current Representatives and 51 current Senators who wouldn’t do that if you put a gun to their heads regardless of what evidence you presented to them.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

That was the Department Of Energy, there are 213 current Representatives and 51 current Senators who wouldn’t do that if you put a gun to their heads regardless of what evidence you presented to them.

Ha, probably true.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

That was the Department Of Energy, there are 213 current Representatives and 51 current Senators who wouldn’t do that if you put a gun to their heads regardless of what evidence you presented to them.

Plenty of boardmembers as well...

[frankbmd]

Conspiracy theories can, but certainly not always, have merit.

If the media chooses to label something a conspiracy theory, automatically over 50% of the population will dismiss it as garbage.

Follow the science is meaningless, unless you trust the source and understand it.

I think the pitch clock is a good thing. It's amazing that batters can still hit without adjusting the velcro on their batting gloves after each pitch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Our resident fount of all wisdom.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

That was the Department Of Energy, there are 213 current Representatives and 51 current Senators who wouldn’t do that if you put a gun to their heads regardless of what evidence you presented to them.

Sorry, my mistake posting some 'fake news'. Thanks for the correction. Now I feel like the MSM, lol. I should have said I got it from an 'anonymous source'.