Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

That right edge is bothersome, dollars to donuts, I think I'd rather have yours.

I thought someone years ago listed a lot of these that had been graded by SGC but noted they were trimmed or sheet cut. REA maybe?

[G1911]

In the context of uncut material, it was destroyed; cut up into individual components of cards. The uncut sheet does not exist. As far as I can tell no photograph of it before it ceased to exist was taken to preserve the layout.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

In the context of uncut material, it was destroyed; cut up into individual components of cards. The uncut sheet does not exist. As far as I can tell no photograph of it before it ceased to exist was taken to preserve the layout.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...et-initiative/

[Peter_Spaeth]

They were AUTHS here.

https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...n-hall-famers/

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...hnson-sgc-mint

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...et-initiative/

I remember this from a years ago. Did it ever amount to anything? I never heard of any final reconstruction. It's difficult to piece together based off scans, and these were cut pretty well so I imagine this would have been incredibly difficult without most of them in hand and out of the holders. I had a hard time piecing together the less well cut T220-1 sheet before I had almost all of them in hand to layout on my table.


Ramly, T.T.T. and 456 may or may not be ATC. I haven't seen any real proof either way, but because the sheet no longer is extant I never dug too hard either. If they weren't ATC, it may have been done in the same general ATC & affiliates card promotion anyways, like I suspect E229 was. If it was done by them, the sheet layout seems odd, because, while we don't the layout, it appears to have only had 1 card of a subject on a sheet.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by G1911

In the context of uncut material, it was destroyed; cut up into individual components of cards. The uncut sheet does not exist. As far as I can tell no photograph of it before it ceased to exist was taken to preserve the layout.

Fair enough. I guess destruction by cut-up is still destruction (no longer whole).

Meanwhile, I saw the Wajo in person at the Philly show -- it is very pretty.

Regarding sheet-cut cards, do you think what SGC did -- grade it but note its sheet cut -- makes sense? Its not authentic ("A") to the extent it was never included with the tobacco it advertised. Also, it really has not been altered, except with respect to its place on the larger sheet, and all cards were at some point cut from sheets.

You have T206 brown old mills, which all come with an A designation, which were never put into packs, and were all sheet cut (often with wavy borders). You have most T215 pirates cut from a sheet and they all get A designations. Meanwhile there are plenty of hand cut strip and other cards that get numerical grades but are designated "hand cut" (sometimes incorrectly). Seems that SGC grading it and designating it sheet cut makes sense.

I know this is a side track of the main topic, and perhaps its been discussed before, but I really don't know the nuances of grading and this is interesting, like the T206 Wagner

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Fair enough. I guess destruction by cut-up is still destruction (no longer whole).

Meanwhile, I saw the Wajo in person at the Philly show -- it is very pretty.

Regarding sheet-cut cards, do you think what SGC did -- grade it but note its sheet cut -- makes sense? Its not authentic ("A") to the extent it was never included with the tobacco it advertised. Also, it really has not been altered, except with respect to its place on the larger sheet, and all cards were at some point cut from sheets.

You have T206 brown old mills, which all come with an A designation, which were never put into packs, and were all sheet cut (often with wavy borders). You have most T215 pirates cut from a sheet and they all get A designations. Meanwhile there are plenty of hand cut strip and other cards that get numerical grades but are designated "hand cut" (sometimes incorrectly). Seems that SGC grading it and designating it sheet cut makes sense.

I know this is a side track of the main topic, and perhaps its been discussed before, but I really don't know the nuances of grading and this is interesting, like the T206 Wagner

Personally, I would think they just be "AUTH"; and probably sell for more than a 1 or a 2 or a 3 because they are very nice looking copies. A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special. A card cut down after-the-face is a card cut down after-the-fact, it's still a trim job. That doesn't ruin the card or anything, but it makes it a technical A grade.

I believe these were in A slabs originally. Not sure what happened to get them re-holdered into the more advantageous '1-10 with a note' format. EDIT: I see Peter linked to the original A slabs before this post now.

I know most people who come into this kind of material will cut them up, but it would be great if they could at least preserve for us all what it looked like before being cut for dollars.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Personally, I would think they just be "AUTH"; and probably sell for more than a 1 or a 2 or a 3 because they are very nice looking copies. A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special. A card cut down after-the-face is a card cut down after-the-fact, it's still a trim job. That doesn't ruin the card or anything, but it makes it a technical A grade.

I believe these were in A slabs originally. Not sure what happened to get them re-holdered into the more advantageous '1-10 with a note' format. EDIT: I see Peter linked to the original A slabs before this post now.

I know most people who come into this kind of material will cut them up, but it would be great if they could at least preserve for us all what it looked like before being cut for dollars.

Connections make these things happen. I agree they should be A, as they or most of them were in the link I posted, but as long as sheet cut is indicated it's reasonable I suppose.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Connections make these things happen. I agree they should be A, as they or most of them were in the link I posted, but as long as sheet cut is indicated it's reasonable I suppose.

Is SGC doing this for other sheet-cut items as a general thing now, recently? I don't keep up with grading land; I'm a slab cracker unless I'm keeping the card as trade bait. I don't recall seeing this done before in any generation of their slabs.


Another, separate note of interest about this sheet is that, apparently, it is said to have had 1 copy of most of the cards, as I recall. Yet over half the set isn't found with the T.T.T. backs (I believe we are at 49 confirmed of 50 suspected), which would generally have indicated to us that sheets had no more than that number of different subjects at most.


My only Ramyl's are an atrociously trimmed TTT O'Leary and a blank back (not skinned) of Rube Manning. They are gorgeous cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Is SGC doing this for other sheet-cut items as a general thing now, recently? I don't keep up with grading land; I'm a slab cracker unless I'm keeping the card as trade bait. I don't recall seeing this done before in any generation of their slabs.


Another, separate note of interest about this sheet is that, apparently, it is said to have had 1 copy of most of the cards, as I recall. Yet over half the set isn't found with the T.T.T. backs (I believe we are at 49 confirmed of 50 suspected), which would generally have indicated to us that sheets had no more than that number of different subjects at most.


My only Ramyl's are an atrociously trimmed TTT O'Leary and a blank back (not skinned) of Rube Manning. They are gorgeous cards.

Again, connections can make these things happen, it doesn't make them right, but it's the explanation. Some submitters are more equal than others. Always been true, always will be.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by G1911

A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special.

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

I don’t think we disagree. The context is authentic cards. That the cards from a sheet can be helpful or research, but within the context here, of their grading, they are not special. They are still trimmed, just like any other cut down card.

I appreciate the uniqueness and coolness of uncut material. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the large majority of uncut material from the 1909-1912 promotional project credited to the ATC and AL but also including others that still exists is in my personal collection. I love ‘em, they are special, they are not special in the context of certifying handcut cards, beyond the value these have to the research side.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

Just saw your edit. That picture is my living room table . I acquired more of the fragments after this initial batch and posted an update too with what I think is the full and correct arrangement of its original order.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just saw your edit. That picture is my living room table . I acquired more of the fragments after this initial batch and posted an update too with what I think is the full and correct arrangement of its original order.

Those were awesome. Great pickup. And they are unique, right?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

[mrreality68]

Sadly I cannot add to the information and history being shared.
But I am thankful for all to those that shared and
amazed by the information but also being able to pull up pictures, links, and auctions from so long ago and so fast

[G1911]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

Strong disagree, those uncuts like the one shown are tedious trash. Someone needs to get the scissors out

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

Hi Corey

I share your sentiments.....sheets are certainly "special". My Sportscards collection includes many uncut sheets (from 1928 - 1966).
An example from my collection is this unique complete sheet.....that tells us the story of why certain FB cards in this set are scarcer
than others.




Regarding these two famous T206's.....there is NO mystery about them, they were both cut from the same uncut sheet.**
-----

Gretzky Wagner-------------------------------------Charlie Conlin Plank


Note ** My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards were also discovered in that area. This is not as unusual as it may sound, since Joseph Palmer Knapp (American
Lithographic Co. President) had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, Long Island.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.