Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Fair enough. I guess destruction by cut-up is still destruction (no longer whole).

Meanwhile, I saw the Wajo in person at the Philly show -- it is very pretty.

Regarding sheet-cut cards, do you think what SGC did -- grade it but note its sheet cut -- makes sense? Its not authentic ("A") to the extent it was never included with the tobacco it advertised. Also, it really has not been altered, except with respect to its place on the larger sheet, and all cards were at some point cut from sheets.

You have T206 brown old mills, which all come with an A designation, which were never put into packs, and were all sheet cut (often with wavy borders). You have most T215 pirates cut from a sheet and they all get A designations. Meanwhile there are plenty of hand cut strip and other cards that get numerical grades but are designated "hand cut" (sometimes incorrectly). Seems that SGC grading it and designating it sheet cut makes sense.

I know this is a side track of the main topic, and perhaps its been discussed before, but I really don't know the nuances of grading and this is interesting, like the T206 Wagner

Personally, I would think they just be "AUTH"; and probably sell for more than a 1 or a 2 or a 3 because they are very nice looking copies. A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special. A card cut down after-the-face is a card cut down after-the-fact, it's still a trim job. That doesn't ruin the card or anything, but it makes it a technical A grade.

I believe these were in A slabs originally. Not sure what happened to get them re-holdered into the more advantageous '1-10 with a note' format. EDIT: I see Peter linked to the original A slabs before this post now.

I know most people who come into this kind of material will cut them up, but it would be great if they could at least preserve for us all what it looked like before being cut for dollars.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Personally, I would think they just be "AUTH"; and probably sell for more than a 1 or a 2 or a 3 because they are very nice looking copies. A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special. A card cut down after-the-face is a card cut down after-the-fact, it's still a trim job. That doesn't ruin the card or anything, but it makes it a technical A grade.

I believe these were in A slabs originally. Not sure what happened to get them re-holdered into the more advantageous '1-10 with a note' format. EDIT: I see Peter linked to the original A slabs before this post now.

I know most people who come into this kind of material will cut them up, but it would be great if they could at least preserve for us all what it looked like before being cut for dollars.

Connections make these things happen. I agree they should be A, as they or most of them were in the link I posted, but as long as sheet cut is indicated it's reasonable I suppose.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Connections make these things happen. I agree they should be A, as they or most of them were in the link I posted, but as long as sheet cut is indicated it's reasonable I suppose.

Is SGC doing this for other sheet-cut items as a general thing now, recently? I don't keep up with grading land; I'm a slab cracker unless I'm keeping the card as trade bait. I don't recall seeing this done before in any generation of their slabs.


Another, separate note of interest about this sheet is that, apparently, it is said to have had 1 copy of most of the cards, as I recall. Yet over half the set isn't found with the T.T.T. backs (I believe we are at 49 confirmed of 50 suspected), which would generally have indicated to us that sheets had no more than that number of different subjects at most.


My only Ramyl's are an atrociously trimmed TTT O'Leary and a blank back (not skinned) of Rube Manning. They are gorgeous cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Is SGC doing this for other sheet-cut items as a general thing now, recently? I don't keep up with grading land; I'm a slab cracker unless I'm keeping the card as trade bait. I don't recall seeing this done before in any generation of their slabs.


Another, separate note of interest about this sheet is that, apparently, it is said to have had 1 copy of most of the cards, as I recall. Yet over half the set isn't found with the T.T.T. backs (I believe we are at 49 confirmed of 50 suspected), which would generally have indicated to us that sheets had no more than that number of different subjects at most.


My only Ramyl's are an atrociously trimmed TTT O'Leary and a blank back (not skinned) of Rube Manning. They are gorgeous cards.

Again, connections can make these things happen, it doesn't make them right, but it's the explanation. Some submitters are more equal than others. Always been true, always will be.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, connections can make these things happen, it doesn't make them right, but it's the explanation. Some submitters are more equal than others. Always been true, always will be.

I’m not disputing, I just like to dot my “i”’s and cross my “T”’s before assuming corruption. I don’t really follow changes in accepted grading practices, and thus don’t know if this is done for others generally recently or is a gift to a favored submitter to generate $$’s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m not disputing, I just like to dot my “i”’s and cross my “T”’s before assuming corruption. I don’t really follow changes in accepted grading practices, and thus don’t know if this is done for others generally recently or is a gift to a favored submitter to generate $$’s.

If sheet cut cards are knowingly getting number grades on a regular basis, other than from Beckett maybe, that's news to me.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by G1911

A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special.

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

I don’t think we disagree. The context is authentic cards. That the cards from a sheet can be helpful or research, but within the context here, of their grading, they are not special. They are still trimmed, just like any other cut down card.

I appreciate the uniqueness and coolness of uncut material. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the large majority of uncut material from the 1909-1912 promotional project credited to the ATC and AL but also including others that still exists is in my personal collection. I love ‘em, they are special, they are not special in the context of certifying handcut cards, beyond the value these have to the research side.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

Just saw your edit. That picture is my living room table . I acquired more of the fragments after this initial batch and posted an update too with what I think is the full and correct arrangement of its original order.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just saw your edit. That picture is my living room table . I acquired more of the fragments after this initial batch and posted an update too with what I think is the full and correct arrangement of its original order.

Those were awesome. Great pickup. And they are unique, right?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Those were awesome. Great pickup. And they are unique, right?

I have 20 of the 23 surviving fragments now (2 no longer exist, evidently, the bottom left and right corner pieces), for the prices I’ve paid for the last batch I sure as heck hope they are unique . The sheet of 8 Donovan’s represents 2/3 of all known copies of the card by itself.

[Snowman]

I like that they gave it a grade with a "Sheet Cut" flip. I think that's the optimal solution. Not all sheet-cut cards are equal. Evaluate the card's condition, note that it has been sheet cut, and let the market decide. Why just slap them all with an "AUTHENTIC ALTERED" instead? It makes no sense.

Spoiler: All cards are sheet-cut cards.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I like that they gave it a grade with a "Sheet Cut" flip. I think that's the optimal solution. Not all sheet-cut cards are equal. Evaluate the card's condition, note that it has been sheet cut, and let the market decide. Why just slap them all with an "AUTHENTIC ALTERED" instead? It makes no sense.

Spoiler: All cards are sheet-cut cards.

Right but not all cards were hand cut from sheets.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Spoiler: All cards are sheet-cut cards.

…. No shit…

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

[mrreality68]

Sadly I cannot add to the information and history being shared.
But I am thankful for all to those that shared and
amazed by the information but also being able to pull up pictures, links, and auctions from so long ago and so fast

[Pat R]

I had forgot about this information that Tim posted when he was doing his sheet mystique article but something similar to this I find believable with the Wagner. It's possible that American Lithograph printed up salesman sample sheets that were totally different than the production sheets they were printing and the Wagner and Plank were on this sample sheets together and if Bill Mastro is telling the truth the stack of cards he saw with the Wagner could have come from a cut up salesman sample sheet. It could also explain the handful of Wagner and Plank Piedmont 150's as they all could have come from different salesman sheets.

This is part of that article, I think a member still has the 57 cards in this article.


One such story began in 1999, when a gentleman from Florida contacted a well-known dealer with a group of T206s that he wanted to sell. According to a list the man provided, the cards had either Sweet Caporal 350 or blank backs, and all were hand cut. The gentleman explained that his family originally was from the Northeast, and his grandfather was a salesman who had sheets of T206s that he used as samples. In the late teens or early 1920s, several of the sheets were cut into individual cards for the grandson to enjoy as a child. The remaining complete and partial sheets were stored in the attic of the family home. Years later a fire destroyed the attic and all of the sheets. The only cards that survived were those that previously had been cut for the grandson.



During the course of the next three years, the cards were purchased in groups of four or five by the dealer, who in turn immediately sold them to a collector. In total, 57 cards were bought, and all of them ended up in the same collection. During the time of these purchases, the collector mailed to the grandson a letter that included a questionnaire about the cards, uncut sheets and family history. Time passed, but a reply never arrived. In 2002, all communication between the grandson and dealer ceased, and so did the pipeline of cards. According to the original list from the grandson, there were other cards in addition to those that the dealer and collector were able to buy.



The collector who purchased the cards has attempted to recreate the sheets. To date, he has been successful at piecing together cards in groups from two to eight. Though these groups do not give a complete picture of an uncut sheet, they do provide valuable information regarding the vertical placement of subjects. These groups, along with miscut cards or cards with misaligned print runs, show that subjects don’t appear to have been repeated horizontally. These cards also seem to dispel theories that subjects were grouped on sheets by team, pose, or color combinations.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

Strong disagree, those uncuts like the one shown are tedious trash. Someone needs to get the scissors out

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

Hi Corey

I share your sentiments.....sheets are certainly "special". My Sportscards collection includes many uncut sheets (from 1928 - 1966).
An example from my collection is this unique complete sheet.....that tells us the story of why certain FB cards in this set are scarcer
than others.




Regarding these two famous T206's.....there is NO mystery about them, they were both cut from the same uncut sheet.**
-----

Gretzky Wagner-------------------------------------Charlie Conlin Plank


Note ** My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards were also discovered in that area. This is not as unusual as it may sound, since Joseph Palmer Knapp (American
Lithographic Co. President) had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, Long Island.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ksfarmboy]

Ted please don’t forget to leave that 52 sheet for me in your will. Absolutely stunning!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Corey

I share your sentiments.....sheets are certainly "special". My Sportscards collection includes many uncut sheets (from 1928 - 1966).
An example from my collection is this unique complete sheet.....that tells us the story of why certain FB cards in this set are scarcer
than others.




Regarding these two famous T206's.....there is NO mystery about them, they were both cut from the same uncut sheet.**
-----

Gretzky Wagner-------------------------------------Charlie Conlin Plank


Note ** My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards were also discovered in that area. This is not as unusual as it may sound, since Joseph Palmer Knapp (American
Lithographic Co. President) had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, Long Island.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

So where are the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's from that sheet Ted?
And the most referenced information on where the sheet originated is Alan Ray's father bought it at a Florida flea market and then had Ray bring it to NY to sell it.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Corey

I share your sentiments.....sheets are certainly "special". My Sportscards collection includes many uncut sheets (from 1928 - 1966).
An example from my collection is this unique complete sheet.....that tells us the story of why certain FB cards in this set are scarcer
than others.




Regarding these two famous T206's.....there is NO mystery about them, they were both cut from the same uncut sheet.**
-----

Gretzky Wagner-------------------------------------Charlie Conlin Plank


Note ** My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards were also discovered in that area. This is not as unusual as it may sound, since Joseph Palmer Knapp (American
Lithographic Co. President) had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, Long Island.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, this post is perfect for the thread because it's exactly what the thread is about. I enjoy the hobby talk and stories but many of them are bits and pieces of information that culminate into several versions created from misinformation. You say the sheet originated in NY but the early information is what I posted that it originated at a Florida flea market but you haven't responded about where you came up with the NY information.

Same thing with the Wagner and Plank coming from the same previously uncut sheet if they did IMO it wasn't a regular production sheet. Just like a picture is worth a thousand words the cards themselves tell the true story and all the information we have from the cards indicates that those two subjects weren't on the same sheet. When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set very much like Crawford (throwing) to me it shows he was added right around the time Crawford was and was pulled shortly after while Crawford continued though to the end of the print group 1 printing.

[tedzan]

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.




Joseph Palmer Knapp was the founder of the American Lithographic Company (circa late 19th Century). He had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, L. I.,
New York. The point I'm making here is that Mr Knapp sometime during the summer of 1909 most likely brought T206 sheets containing Wagner cards
and Plank's, and other 150-only Series cards home for his children.

What evidence do I have that there is a high likelihood that this occurred......check-out the following complete uncut sheets which I acquired (circa 40
years ago) from former employees at Zabel Brothers Printers in Philadelphia, that produced the BOWMAN cards. During my High School years, I had a
part-time job working at a Print Shop. The printers regularly took home many of their printed material.



1948 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets






1949 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets





1950 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet




1952 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet (Large card version)




Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "

I don't quite get it. Please explain.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say down) in Florida.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

And this is what I'm talking about with the mysteries and myths surrounding the card. Are you saying it was discovered in Long Island then somehow ended up in Florida where it was then brought back to Long Island and cut up?

You keep ,posting that your research indicates that it was originally discovered on Long Island but you're not showing or saying where that information came from.

Here's the claim that I've seen about it's origin

img188.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1.....
" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.

2.....
Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "


I don't quite get it. Please explain.

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.