Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.
 

We will never know all the truth's about the card but some of the claims defy what we do know about the printing starting with the first claim that the card originated from a sheet that Alan Ray's father supposedly purchased at a Florida flea market. We now know without a doubt that there were several vertical rows of each subject on a sheet in every series printed in the set so where are all the other Wagner's that would have been on that sheet?

What I feel is another big myth is that Plank was also on that sheet with Wagner and it is claimed that the Conlon Plank came from that sheet. So like the Wagner where are all the other Plank's from that sheet and to a greater degree the back numbers on the two cards indicate that there is very little chance that Plank and Wagner were ever on a T206 sheet together.

Her are the numbers on the Wagner's and the 150 series Planks in the t206resource galleries
Attachment 542428

The only good evidence we have of previous claims about the card is Mastro admitting in court that he trimmed the sides of the Wagner.

We really know very little about the most famous and talked about card in the hobby. There are no really good pictures or scans of the card that I know of and very little talk about it from any of previous owners.

A member asked me to add the 350's for comparison to my post which is simple enough since Wagner wasn't printed with 350 backs and Plank is only confirmed with SC350/30.

Here is a video of Mastro talking about the Wagner (and his trim) and the stack of other cards that were supposedly cut from the same sheet.

https://youtu.be/CRdjnVcNNn0?t=509

I think I have seen that video before, but it was really interesting again, on a few fronts. The comments below, at the end, are telling too.

I had lunch with the person who graded the card first, recently, as mentioned before. He said, at the time, there was no evidence to him that the card had been altered. It looked like an almost perfect card and he gave it the grade it should have received.

I think point 2 is the big problem. I think it’s entirely possible there was only one Wagner, presumably it was not a complete sheet but a sheet fragment. We know many subjects in multiple sets didn’t repeat all the way down a column. It’s feasible that the Wagner was on the top row of the fragment, if the fragment existed and was the origin.

I doubt Plank was on the same sheet as the Wagner. They may have both come from the same origin, perhaps a handful of strips?

While I’m against sheet or strip destruction entirely, it’s really a shame there appears to be no record of this find or whatever it was for educational purposes, no photograph that actually exists of what it was before cutting. We have millions of cards from this 1909-1912 card project, but a tiny handful of uncut items. I’ve been trying to track down evidence of every little scrap of uncut material from the T cards known and turned up almost nothing that people can provide any reasonable evidence for the existence of.

As for strips of T cards, I am not sure if you are talking only T206 but there have been some strips known. I used to own these below. I think there are quite a few out there in collections, but not shown often.

There are a number, “a tiny handful” as I claimed, - but the amount is tiny. There’s some Obaks I believe are a different project from the one credited to American Lithogrpahy and the ATC, though it seems to be much more complicated than that oft stated credit.

There’s 2 T25 strips. There’s the Wagner prototype strip. There’s a T62 proof sheet or two. There’s 92% of a T220-1 sheet. There’s some E229 fragments (I know, E, however I suspect they used the same contracts as the T cards and were a Brett production at the same time as part of the general project). Off the top of head I can’t think of any others that were part of this project, I probably have records of 1 or 2 more in my notebook. I have been told about a number of others, but from hobbyists unable or unwilling to provide a picture or any evidence that it actually exists. I would love to see others, we have and can learn a lot from other sets that were part of this 1909-1912 promotion.

As regards T cards, it is my understanding that some years ago a complete uncut T204 set surfaced, which was subsequently cut down into its individual cards. As I recall, over the years some of these cards appeared on the market.

Are all the known PD150 Planks sheet cut?

Most famous card.:confused: This has nothing to do with the 1989 Fleer Bill Ripken card.

Haven't there been pics of the horizontal strip the Wagner was cut from shown before?

There is a strip of T206 - the strip that was found in Wagner's house (perhaps in the pocket of old uniform pants). It sold in Hunt in 2010:

https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=242&lot_qual=

I have uncut proof sheets for the entire T419 ATC Beauties playing card set --- 7 sheets in total I think.

Top strip is cool. Shame there's a little schmutz on it though...

I think the Wajo is for sale in the next Mile High Auction (not mine)

I believe the T204 sheet was destroyed by Frank Nagy in the late 80's or 90's, and thus I did not include. I don't think there is a photograph of it to show the layout that we might learn anything from. I'm also not sure if the T204's were printed by the same group of partners that did the partnership promotion with the ATC; if they are really part of the 1909-1912 card promotion generally credited in the hobby to the American Lithographic Co. and the American Tobacco Co. (though it definitely included other printing companies that may or may not have been shadow subsidiaries, and probably a small number of non-ATC products).

T419 is several years before this project and not part of it, though a series of proof sheets sounds no less awesome for that fact.

Maybe cut up, but Not destroyed. As I said, this is in the upcoming Mile High Auction (which looks like an amazing auction BTW).

That right edge is bothersome, dollars to donuts, I think I'd rather have yours.

I don't know how that grades a 9 without addressing the sheet cut.

I thought someone years ago listed a lot of these that had been graded by SGC but noted they were trimmed or sheet cut. REA maybe?

In the context of uncut material, it was destroyed; cut up into individual components of cards. The uncut sheet does not exist. As far as I can tell no photograph of it before it ceased to exist was taken to preserve the layout.

Fair enough. I guess destruction by cut-up is still destruction (no longer whole).

Meanwhile, I saw the Wajo in person at the Philly show -- it is very pretty.

Regarding sheet-cut cards, do you think what SGC did -- grade it but note its sheet cut -- makes sense? Its not authentic ("A") to the extent it was never included with the tobacco it advertised. Also, it really has not been altered, except with respect to its place on the larger sheet, and all cards were at some point cut from sheets.

You have T206 brown old mills, which all come with an A designation, which were never put into packs, and were all sheet cut (often with wavy borders). You have most T215 pirates cut from a sheet and they all get A designations. Meanwhile there are plenty of hand cut strip and other cards that get numerical grades but are designated "hand cut" (sometimes incorrectly). Seems that SGC grading it and designating it sheet cut makes sense.

I know this is a side track of the main topic, and perhaps its been discussed before, but I really don't know the nuances of grading and this is interesting, like the T206 Wagner

They were AUTHS here.

https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...n-hall-famers/

I remember this from a years ago. Did it ever amount to anything? I never heard of any final reconstruction. It's difficult to piece together based off scans, and these were cut pretty well so I imagine this would have been incredibly difficult without most of them in hand and out of the holders. I had a hard time piecing together the less well cut T220-1 sheet before I had almost all of them in hand to layout on my table.


Ramly, T.T.T. and 456 may or may not be ATC. I haven't seen any real proof either way, but because the sheet no longer is extant I never dug too hard either. If they weren't ATC, it may have been done in the same general ATC & affiliates card promotion anyways, like I suspect E229 was. If it was done by them, the sheet layout seems odd, because, while we don't the layout, it appears to have only had 1 card of a subject on a sheet.

Personally, I would think they just be "AUTH"; and probably sell for more than a 1 or a 2 or a 3 because they are very nice looking copies. A sheet has great value in the sense that it can inform us on the research side of the hobby, but it is otherwise not special. A card cut down after-the-face is a card cut down after-the-fact, it's still a trim job. That doesn't ruin the card or anything, but it makes it a technical A grade.

I believe these were in A slabs originally. Not sure what happened to get them re-holdered into the more advantageous '1-10 with a note' format. EDIT: I see Peter linked to the original A slabs before this post now.

I know most people who come into this kind of material will cut them up, but it would be great if they could at least preserve for us all what it looked like before being cut for dollars.

Connections make these things happen. I agree they should be A, as they or most of them were in the link I posted, but as long as sheet cut is indicated it's reasonable I suppose.

And that's where some of these hobby myths start, he said "it was obvious all the cards were cut from an uncut sheet maybe one sheet I don't know" and the fact could be that the cards originated from an employee who cut up several sheets and the stack could have already passed through one or more peoples hands.

The best evidence I've seen of a group of cards coming from an uncut sheet are the group of Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory no prints and another group of regular production Sweet Caporal 350-460 that were hand cut from sheets
at some point and sold by the same ebay seller. The no prints I believe came from one or two sheets and the regular prints came from one or two different sheets.

If you look at the groups of the same subjects they have the same registration and the same color shift mis-alignments.

From the no prints notice the registration and the green color shift on the bottom left corner on all of the Pfeister's
Attachment 542439

same thing on these regular print Ford's with the registration and color shift mis-alignment on the bottom border
Attachment 542440

Is SGC doing this for other sheet-cut items as a general thing now, recently? I don't keep up with grading land; I'm a slab cracker unless I'm keeping the card as trade bait. I don't recall seeing this done before in any generation of their slabs.


Another, separate note of interest about this sheet is that, apparently, it is said to have had 1 copy of most of the cards, as I recall. Yet over half the set isn't found with the T.T.T. backs (I believe we are at 49 confirmed of 50 suspected), which would generally have indicated to us that sheets had no more than that number of different subjects at most.


My only Ramyl's are an atrociously trimmed TTT O'Leary and a blank back (not skinned) of Rube Manning. They are gorgeous cards.

Again, connections can make these things happen, it doesn't make them right, but it's the explanation. Some submitters are more equal than others. Always been true, always will be.

I’m not disputing, I just like to dot my “i”’s and cross my “T”’s before assuming corruption. I don’t really follow changes in accepted grading practices, and thus don’t know if this is done for others generally recently or is a gift to a favored submitter to generate $$’s.

I could not disagree more with your first statement. A sheet in many of the T and E issues would be unique (the only one that exists) if ever located. Maybe the sheets aren't appreciated as they should be, but they are indeed "special".

Did you see these boxing sheets from the T220 Silver Series that recently came to market on Ebay? Unique.

I don’t think we disagree. The context is authentic cards. That the cards from a sheet can be helpful or research, but within the context here, of their grading, they are not special. They are still trimmed, just like any other cut down card.

I appreciate the uniqueness and coolness of uncut material. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the large majority of uncut material from the 1909-1912 promotional project credited to the ATC and AL but also including others that still exists is in my personal collection. I love ‘em, they are special, they are not special in the context of certifying handcut cards, beyond the value these have to the research side.

If sheet cut cards are knowingly getting number grades on a regular basis, other than from Beckett maybe, that's news to me.

Just saw your edit. That picture is my living room table ;). I acquired more of the fragments after this initial batch and posted an update too with what I think is the full and correct arrangement of its original order.

Those were awesome. Great pickup. And they are unique, right?:D

I have 20 of the 23 surviving fragments now (2 no longer exist, evidently, the bottom left and right corner pieces), for the prices I’ve paid for the last batch I sure as heck hope they are unique :D. The sheet of 8 Donovan’s represents 2/3 of all known copies of the card by itself.

I like that they gave it a grade with a "Sheet Cut" flip. I think that's the optimal solution. Not all sheet-cut cards are equal. Evaluate the card's condition, note that it has been sheet cut, and let the market decide. Why just slap them all with an "AUTHENTIC ALTERED" instead? It makes no sense.

Spoiler: All cards are sheet-cut cards.

Right but not all cards were hand cut from sheets.

…. No shit…

Hence, as I stated above, I'm a proponent of SGC's "Sheet Cut" designation in addition to assigning it a numeric grade based on its overall condition.

+1

To each his/her own, as they say, but to me, a final production-run uncut sheet is much more "special" than a regular card. For my money, if I had a choice of owning the finest example of any card, or the same card in an uncut final production-run sheet with good eye appeal where there are no condition issues with that key card, it would be a no-brainer for me to select the sheet. That others disagree, I totally respect, and this is why collecting is subjective and so much fun.

Sadly I cannot add to the information and history being shared.
But I am thankful for all to those that shared and
amazed by the information but also being able to pull up pictures, links, and auctions from so long ago and so fast

I had forgot about this information that Tim posted when he was doing his sheet mystique article but something similar to this I find believable with the Wagner. It's possible that American Lithograph printed up salesman sample sheets that were totally different than the production sheets they were printing and the Wagner and Plank were on this sample sheets together and if Bill Mastro is telling the truth the stack of cards he saw with the Wagner could have come from a cut up salesman sample sheet. It could also explain the handful of Wagner and Plank Piedmont 150's as they all could have come from different salesman sheets.

This is part of that article, I think a member still has the 57 cards in this article.


One such story began in 1999, when a gentleman from Florida contacted a well-known dealer with a group of T206s that he wanted to sell. According to a list the man provided, the cards had either Sweet Caporal 350 or blank backs, and all were hand cut. The gentleman explained that his family originally was from the Northeast, and his grandfather was a salesman who had sheets of T206s that he used as samples. In the late teens or early 1920s, several of the sheets were cut into individual cards for the grandson to enjoy as a child. The remaining complete and partial sheets were stored in the attic of the family home. Years later a fire destroyed the attic and all of the sheets. The only cards that survived were those that previously had been cut for the grandson.



During the course of the next three years, the cards were purchased in groups of four or five by the dealer, who in turn immediately sold them to a collector. In total, 57 cards were bought, and all of them ended up in the same collection. During the time of these purchases, the collector mailed to the grandson a letter that included a questionnaire about the cards, uncut sheets and family history. Time passed, but a reply never arrived. In 2002, all communication between the grandson and dealer ceased, and so did the pipeline of cards. According to the original list from the grandson, there were other cards in addition to those that the dealer and collector were able to buy.



The collector who purchased the cards has attempted to recreate the sheets. To date, he has been successful at piecing together cards in groups from two to eight. Though these groups do not give a complete picture of an uncut sheet, they do provide valuable information regarding the vertical placement of subjects. These groups, along with miscut cards or cards with misaligned print runs, show that subjects don’t appear to have been repeated horizontally. These cards also seem to dispel theories that subjects were grouped on sheets by team, pose, or color combinations.

I was in your camp until they put hand cut on cards they themselves said weren't hand cut, and clearly aren't. That is idiocy to me.

That is a good take, Leon. I've had the same peeve with the TPGs and the W580 set. There is a parallel set of tobacco cards issued in Asia (Siam) that were machine cut and printed on nicer stock with shellacked fronts that they keep ID'ing and grading as W580s. If you see a really clean, really symmetrical W580 in a slab it is likely to be one of the Siamese cards.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Siam%201.JPGhttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Siam%202.JPG

Strong disagree, those uncuts like the one shown are tedious trash. Someone needs to get the scissors out :D

Hi Corey

I share your sentiments.....sheets are certainly "special". My Sportscards collection includes many uncut sheets (from 1928 - 1966).
An example from my collection is this unique complete sheet.....that tells us the story of why certain FB cards in this set are scarcer
than others.
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetLarge25.jpg



Regarding these two famous T206's.....there is NO mystery about them, they were both cut from the same uncut sheet.**
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...m022705A_1.jpg ----- http://i.imgur.com/35DTo.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/zDCvv.jpg

Gretzky Wagner-------------------------------------Charlie Conlin Plank


Note ** My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards were also discovered in that area. This is not as unusual as it may sound, since Joseph Palmer Knapp (American
Lithographic Co. President) had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, Long Island.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted please don’t forget to leave that 52 sheet for me in your will. Absolutely stunning!

So where are the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's from that sheet Ted?
And the most referenced information on where the sheet originated is Alan Ray's father bought it at a Florida flea market and then had Ray bring it to NY to sell it.

:D This.

Ted, this post is perfect for the thread because it's exactly what the thread is about. I enjoy the hobby talk and stories but many of them are bits and pieces of information that culminate into several versions created from misinformation. You say the sheet originated in NY but the early information is what I posted that it originated at a Florida flea market but you haven't responded about where you came up with the NY information.

Same thing with the Wagner and Plank coming from the same previously uncut sheet if they did IMO it wasn't a regular production sheet. Just like a picture is worth a thousand words the cards themselves tell the true story and all the information we have from the cards indicates that those two subjects weren't on the same sheet. When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set very much like Crawford (throwing) to me it shows he was added right around the time Crawford was and was pulled shortly after while Crawford continued though to the end of the print group 1 printing.