So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

They were born in the same year, so about the same age throughout their careers. What I remember is that when the Tigers finally got into the World Series in 1968, Kaline wasn't even going to get regular playing time. He'd hit just .287 during the season, playing in 102 games (he never played in more than 133 games, from 1967 to 1973.) Manager Smith had to take the extraordinary gamble of moving his centerfielder, Mickey Stanley, to play shortstop, to manufacture a spot in the outfield for Al.

Meanwhile, Clemente, in the 1971 Series, hammered out 12 hits, batted over .400, and was the Series MVP.

I'll take Clemente.

By the way, despite his objections, he did sign his name "Bob" for Topps, at least once:

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

I'm confused as well.

Kaline's .287 in 1968, if he had played enough to qualify that season, would have been 4th in the batting race in that pitching dominated season. He had a 146 OPS+ that year. He was obviously performing very well.

Like I've said it, I think Kaline wins it but it's a very narrow gap between them. This 1968 argument definitely is not a good argument against Kaline and appears to be directly contradictory to the math.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Just .287" even in a year other than 1968 sounds a bit oxymoronic, when since maybe the 1930s was that ever not a solid BA?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

Again...it wasn't to "squeeze" in a HOF...it was to remove Oyler.....

Selective memory I think..Kaline's total #s were down due to injury that year...but his slashes were still good...oh and he was considered pretty good on D too...winning 10/11 previous gold gloves up until his injury filled 1968...contrary to your writings...Kaline would not have been the odd man out...not sure why you keep spewing this nonsense

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

I don't look at it that way. You don't need to find a way to "squeeze" your HOF outfielder and face of the franchise into a lineup with Mickey Stanley and Jim Northrup, sorry. Look, by moving Stanley you lose that Gold Glove anyhow. Ae the poster above states, the gamble was could they get away with moving out the anemic Ray Oyler in favor of the reasonably good hitter Stanley. So Kaline's available status created an opportunity, it did necessitate anything. It would have been the easiest decision in the world to bench Northrup or Stanley in favor of Kaline if it came to that.

[G1911]

Name - OPS+
Northrop - 129
Horton - 165
Kaline - 146
Stanley - 102
Oyler - 20

Now let us imagine we possess common sense and this isn’t about advocating Clemente. Who do we think they’re trying to cut out of the lineup? Who do we think the clear choices to start are?

Kaline played less games because he missed two months with a broken arm. The change was done to get Oyler, notorious as a great glove but possibly the worst hitter in the majors, out of the lineup. Even adjusting for the year of the pitcher, Oyler was 80% below the league average, an astounding figure that is rarely seen.

A guy hitting .287 in the 1968 AL would finish fourth in the batting race. Kaline had a great season. As he had every year since 1955. He is obviously not going to be kept out of the lineup.

The arguments presented for Clemente, mostly factually wrong or incredibly emotional, are not compelling.

Disclaimer for those who get triggered at any dissent to the narrative: Clemente was a great player and one of the few athletes I would uphold as an example of human virtue, a man I would consider admirable as a man and not an athlete. To say another player was a hair better is not an insult. To say he is overrated is not an insult. Objective reality is often not what we desire it to be, it is not personal or insulting to be cognizant of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The more I think about it, all respect to Mark, saying Stanley was moved to squeeze Kaline into the lineup makes as much sense as saying the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Germans from flowing into East Germany.