So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Jewish Collector- also an intriguing debate! I'd have to put Hank on top, he
was a production beast. One thing is sure though- I won't call any of them
"overrated" (yep, that was the hoop and the harm!). Trent King

[isiahfan]

Kaline...close...but not that close to be honest.

You can say Clemente played his home games where he lost some HR...but not that much...Kaline was clearly ahead in R, RBI, HR & SB...not to mention his significant ailments.

Both had cannons...

If Kaline had died on the field...like he almost did... (Thank you Willie Horton)..I think you have the Munson/Clemente effect X2...

[ClementeFanOh]

Isiahfan- you are clearly entitled to an opinion on Robert vs Al. You chose
the wrong player, but that's not the point

If you are suggesting that Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson basically
draw some sort of "collective sympathy" due to untimely deaths, you'd do
well to look at the numbers. Munson was on the path of a HOF career, while
Roberto had clearly completed one. Roberto was likely 1st ballot HOF material
absent the circumstances of his death, Munson was not. It's apples and
oranges. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Whoops, typo above due to early morning- "Roberto" not "Robert".
I am clearly an "overrated" typist, I made a mistake. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- ah, grammatical comments. If ever there was a sign that some
desperate asshat was losing an argument, that's it. Keep winning the internet,
1911, one keystroke at a time. Trent King

By the way, it didn't take long for you to lose that veneer of civility, did it?

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth- you don't "need the aggravation"? Really? Looks like you
thrive on it. (Now THERE is an observation that isn't overrated). Trent King

PS- the notion of meaningful debate suggest I believe there is a topic worth
debating with you. I'm quite secure in my reasoning, thank you for the offer
though.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- ah, grammatical comments. If ever there was a sign that some
desperate asshat was losing an argument, that's it. Keep winning the internet,
1911, one keystroke at a time. Trent King

By the way, it didn't take long for you to lose that veneer of civility, did it?

It’s not grammatical. I ignored the poor grammar. You don’t know what key words you were trying to spin into an attack even mean, or the barest bones of basic logic. That’s not grammar.

You did not even start out civil, I hardly see how I owe that to every moron making absurd claims and getting outraged if their guy isn’t out on top. If you want civility, don’t make nutball replies. There is a full transcript in order. Go figure out how to click the “quote” button, it isn’t hard.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Isiahfan- you are clearly entitled to an opinion on Robert vs Al. You chose
the wrong player, but that's not the point

If you are suggesting that Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson basically
draw some sort of "collective sympathy" due to untimely deaths, you'd do
well to look at the numbers. Munson was on the path of a HOF career, while
Roberto had clearly completed one. Roberto was likely 1st ballot HOF material
absent the circumstances of his death, Munson was not. It's apples and
oranges. Trent King

I am not stating that their unfortunate deaths increased their abilities....but it 100% added to their collectability...if you disagree with that not sure what else to say. If they had both been injured or retired instead of dying...on the same days....the interest/intrigue/collectability would maybe be high...not as high thouhg.

[ClementeFanOh]

Isiahfan- well, my remark about you siding with Kaline was just a joke, a friendly jab. Regarding your comment about the collectibility of their cards/etc, that’s from left field as none of the comments mentioned it. Roberto is clearly a high priority get for many vintage collectors, no doubt. I thought you meant that both Munson and Roberto’s manners of death were somehow related to their on field results, which I found strange. Debate doesn’t have to be contentious, right? Trent King

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Isiahfan- well, my remark about you siding with Kaline was just a joke, a friendly jab. Regarding your comment about the collectibility of their cards/etc, that’s from left field as none of the comments mentioned it. Roberto is clearly a high priority get for many vintage collectors, no doubt. I thought you meant that both Munson and Roberto’s manners of death were somehow related to their on field results, which I found strange. Debate doesn’t have to be contentious, right? Trent King

Agreed...both great players...I thought you meant their deaths didn't play a part in their value or attention...

[Carter08]

Clemente. Much cooler rookie card too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

Actually, if you read MY post #2, I was the first one who suggested the common perception of Roberto might be a bit higher than deserved. I don't see why this concept of a player possibly being overrated is so difficult for you. Or why you need to go on a sarcastic rant when nobody has suggested any of the players you named were not great. Anyhow, I don't need the aggravation, let me know if you want to discuss statistics in a dispassionate and objective way, otherwise have a nice evening.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

At least figure out how to use the Quote button before embarrassing yourself further.