So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- since you brought up the word “simplistic” and the notion of acting grown up, I’ll point out that you’ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You’ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up…people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there’s a fair chance you’re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the “E sports” comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can’t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I’m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

[Jewish-collector]

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

I think Brock and then Yaz bring up the rear there. I would rank Aaron very comfortably in first but no question Frank Robinson was a very great player, I would call him a tier ahead of Clemente and Kaline.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Brock and then Yaz bring up the rear there. I would rank Aaron very comfortably in first but no question Frank Robinson was a very great player, I would call him a tier ahead of Clemente and Kaline.

Brock WAY behind the others. Yaz well ahead of Brock but still behind the ATG's

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

Imagine if any of these guys played for the Yankees their entire careers... Robinson and Kaline would be looked at quite differently by collectors, for sure. And Aaron breaking the HR record of a former Yankee legend? It would've been nuts. Kind of fun to envision.

[SAllen2556]

Does anyone know if Clemente ever commented on when he would retire? He was certainly going strong in his later years, way more than Kaline was. He only played 102 games in 1972. Was he becoming injury prone?

It certainly appears from his stats that Clemente could have easily played another 4 or 5 years, which would have put him at about 5th all-time in hits upon retirement in, say, 1977.

Those extra years would have caught him up to Kaline in plate appearances, and at that point would have likely put him at over 500 doubles and 3400 hits.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Does anyone know if Clemente ever commented on when he would retire?

Yes, and it will send shivers up your spine. He said, in June of 1970, that he wanted to play until he got 3,000 hits.

Hear it in his own words:

http://vendiamo.com/Miley/Clemente.wav

As we know, he died with exactly 3,000 base hits.

[packs]

Maybe an alternate take on things but I actually think Clemente's death hurt his overall collectability more than it enhanced it. Had Clemente lived, he would have seen the landscape of baseball change completely. Hispanic players are now a dominant force in Major League Baseball, particularly players from Puerto Rico and other surrounding islands.

It's my opinion and speculative (obviously) but I believe if Clemente had lived, his influence on today's game would be felt more and he would be closer to the make up of the league than he ended up being as a tragic hero.

I think he would be a Jackie Robinson-like figure if he had lived a full life and had enough time to comment on his experiences as the pioneer he was.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is weird to think of certain players not having died young. Ruth easily could have lived well into the 1970s, and Gehrig well into the 1980s, for example. I mean, imagine Ruth being in the press box commenting on the 1975 WS, or Gehrig on the 1986 WS?

Was Clemente a guy who would have stayed involved with baseball, or would he have gone back home and lived an insular life?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

IMO

Hank was a higher level than the others, Brock a lower level than the others.

I would rank them this way:

Aaron


Clemente
F.Robinson
Yastrzemski

Kaline


Brock


.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente stats of the day: 16 HR/162 games. Only 41 BB/162 games, with an OBP of only .359 despite the high BA. Joe Morgan's OBP, for example, was 33 points higher than Clemente's. I think this is where he suffers a bit in some of the analyses.

[packs]

I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.

In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.

In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field.

I remember reading a fascinating column years ago about which players had "duende" (a Spanish word but the discussion was not at all specific to Latin players) and which did not. No doubt Roberto had it. I suppose one could endlessly discuss whether it's important or not.

[packs]

I have a friend who's really into hockey and he says Gretzky was the same way. I know in Gretzky's case the intangibles show up in stats like goals and assists. But the point my friend likes to make about Gretzky is that he wasn't a physically gifted person. He was not fast. He was not big. He had nothing the other elite players did. What made him great was his ability to know what was going to happen before it did and to be in the right place at the right time, or be able to put the puck in the right place at the right time. But he always says nothing about Gretzky's body made him a good hockey player. There was something else there that other people don't have.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

Clemente
Aaron




Robinson
Yaz
Kaline




Brock

[ClementeFanOh]

Rats60- great stuff. Again, both players wonderful, either could play on my
team any day. I'll take Roberto though

G1911- I understand your mantra:

1) You are always correct
2) You refuse to acknowledge, let alone consider, data which contradicts you
3) Any questions? See rule 1.

Finally, I'm not "unhinged" in the least. I'm just amazed and amused by
mouth breathers who make absurd comments, and genuinely believe they
shouldn't be gainsaid. Stay in the bubble, it's a good place for you...

Now then, there's English Premier League today, college ball, and this "little"
REA ending tomorrow. I also pick up some great cards at the Post Office
today. The good clearly outweighs the bad/idiotic! Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Rats60- great stuff. Again, both players wonderful, either could play on my
team any day. I'll take Roberto though

G1911- I understand your mantra:

1) You are always correct
2) You refuse to acknowledge, let alone consider, data which contradicts you
3) Any questions? See rule 1.

Finally, I'm not "unhinged" in the least. I'm just amazed and amused by
mouth breathers who make absurd comments, and genuinely believe they
shouldn't be gainsaid. Stay in the bubble, it's a good place for you...

Now then, there's English Premier League today, college ball, and this "little"
REA ending tomorrow. I also pick up some great cards at the Post Office
today. The good clearly outweighs the bad/idiotic! Trent King

Again, only you have made an appeal to authority. Nobody else has. You have not provided “ data” or ,add a reasonable case, you have thrown a tantrum. You just attacked another poster who never even got into it with you but just picked Kaline. You remain too stupid to even know what key terms and the quote button is, while trying to speak of logic, with which you are clearly not familiar. Learn to read, then calm yourself down, and reply to ideas with a reasonable counter argument and it will go ever better than this nutball crazy shit like last nights infuriated rant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clemente
Aaron




Robinson
Yaz
Kaline




Brock

You and I have had this discussion before of course, but....

WAR
Aaron 143
Clemente 94.8

HR
Aaron 755
Clemente 240

SLG

Aaron .555
Clemente .475

OPS
Aaron .928
Clemente .834

To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You and I have had this discussion before of course, but....

WAR
Aaron 143
Clemente 94.8

HR
Aaron 755
Clemente 240

SLG

Aaron .555
Clemente .475

OPS
Aaron .928
Clemente .834

To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.

This shouldn’t even need to be said. One may like Clemente more, but to assert he is better is so far off from reality that it’s just absurd. The fanboys in this thread…

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- a couple points:

1) I happen to believe Hank Aaron is the most devastating offensive force
in the past 70ish years of baseball. My 3 favorite players are Roberto,
Hank, and Rod Carew.

2) Your memory is selective (is it alright to say that since you are infallible?
Did I cross some line that challenges your deity-like status? Gosh, I hope
not). I have provided data and other commenters have provided data,
making repetition of it unnecessary. The data points ARE there, for both
players. Some choose Roberto and others choose Al. YOU went off the
reservation with the "overrated" talk. It was off topic, unnecessary, and
provocative- and wrong. I called you on it, which makes you angry
because you've already established that you are never wrong. You are
the nicest guy in the world so long as you make the rules and refuse to
be challenged, right?

3) Much earlier in this thread, you made some numbnuts remark about
not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. I'm sure it's
coincidental that those systems related Roberto (and Al) very highly...

4) For someone who claims to dislike verbal "attacks" and "rants", you
are VERY fond of "attacking" and "ranting". Is this part of the "do as I
say, not as I do" mentality that is part of your godhood? Asking for a
friend (Actually, I'm not- don't answer).

5) You are a tiresome blowhard who perfectly fits the image of a person
who I'd love to buy for what he is truly worth, then sell for what you
THINK you are worth.

Your act is a played out clown show, too much good in this day for the likes
of you.

Carry on, Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- a couple points:

1) I happen to believe Hank Aaron is the most devastating offensive force
in the past 70ish years of baseball. My 3 favorite players are Roberto,
Hank, and Rod Carew.

2) Your memory is selective (is it alright to say that since you are infallible?
Did I cross some line that challenges your deity-like status? Gosh, I hope
not). I have provided data and other commenters have provided data,
making repetition of it unnecessary. The data points ARE there, for both
players. Some choose Roberto and others choose Al. YOU went off the
reservation with the "overrated" talk. It was off topic, unnecessary, and
provocative- and wrong. I called you on it, which makes you angry
because you've already established that you are never wrong. You are
the nicest guy in the world so long as you make the rules and refuse to
be challenged, right?

3) Much earlier in this thread, you made some numbnuts remark about
not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. I'm sure it's
coincidental that those systems related Roberto (and Al) very highly...

4) For someone who claims to dislike verbal "attacks" and "rants", you
are VERY fond of "attacking" and "ranting". Is this part of the "do as I
say, not as I do" mentality that is part of your godhood? Asking for a
friend (Actually, I'm not- don't answer).

5) You are a tiresome blowhard who perfectly fits the image of a person
who I'd love to buy for what he is truly worth, then sell for what you
THINK you are worth.

Your act is a played out clown show, too much good in this day for the likes
of you.

Carry on, Trent King

You realize there is a transcript of what has actually been said, in order, right?

1) - Irrelevant

2) - You haven't called me on anything I've actually said, you've refused to read and screeched. The one specific thing you've tried to call is factually wrong; "great" and "overrated" are not "circular", only you are too stupid to not know this.

3) - This is a complete lie, I did not make any comment to that meaning. Are you genuinely illiterate? Again, there is a public transcript.

4) - Again, I did not say that. I said you attacked another poster who has not even engaged with you, which you very clearly did when you called CampyFan a crack addict, insane, and a fake account for also picking Kaline. There is a transcript. Post 92. Learn to read. You have insulted me about 5 times as much, which is fine, but you have no moral ground here.

5) - Cool.

Adjust your dosage, and get back to reality. I'm sorry you cannot debate on any reasonable grounds and just screech for your pick. Taking me out of it, you have been nothing but an abusive jackass to people who have not even engaged with you if they pick Kaline. Calm yourself.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

This shouldn’t even need to be said. One may like Clemente more, but to assert he is better is so far off from reality that it’s just absurd. The fanboys in this thread…

Absurd, nutball crazy, unhinged, fanboys, etc. You take these arguments to an extreme.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Jewish Collector- also an intriguing debate! I'd have to put Hank on top, he
was a production beast. One thing is sure though- I won't call any of them
"overrated" (yep, that was the hoop and the harm!). Trent King

[isiahfan]

Kaline...close...but not that close to be honest.

You can say Clemente played his home games where he lost some HR...but not that much...Kaline was clearly ahead in R, RBI, HR & SB...not to mention his significant ailments.

Both had cannons...

If Kaline had died on the field...like he almost did... (Thank you Willie Horton)..I think you have the Munson/Clemente effect X2...

[ClementeFanOh]

Isiahfan- you are clearly entitled to an opinion on Robert vs Al. You chose
the wrong player, but that's not the point

If you are suggesting that Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson basically
draw some sort of "collective sympathy" due to untimely deaths, you'd do
well to look at the numbers. Munson was on the path of a HOF career, while
Roberto had clearly completed one. Roberto was likely 1st ballot HOF material
absent the circumstances of his death, Munson was not. It's apples and
oranges. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Whoops, typo above due to early morning- "Roberto" not "Robert".
I am clearly an "overrated" typist, I made a mistake. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- ah, grammatical comments. If ever there was a sign that some
desperate asshat was losing an argument, that's it. Keep winning the internet,
1911, one keystroke at a time. Trent King

By the way, it didn't take long for you to lose that veneer of civility, did it?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Isiahfan- you are clearly entitled to an opinion on Robert vs Al. You chose
the wrong player, but that's not the point

If you are suggesting that Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson basically
draw some sort of "collective sympathy" due to untimely deaths, you'd do
well to look at the numbers. Munson was on the path of a HOF career, while
Roberto had clearly completed one. Roberto was likely 1st ballot HOF material
absent the circumstances of his death, Munson was not. It's apples and
oranges. Trent King

I am not stating that their unfortunate deaths increased their abilities....but it 100% added to their collectability...if you disagree with that not sure what else to say. If they had both been injured or retired instead of dying...on the same days....the interest/intrigue/collectability would maybe be high...not as high thouhg.

[ClementeFanOh]

Isiahfan- well, my remark about you siding with Kaline was just a joke, a friendly jab. Regarding your comment about the collectibility of their cards/etc, that’s from left field as none of the comments mentioned it. Roberto is clearly a high priority get for many vintage collectors, no doubt. I thought you meant that both Munson and Roberto’s manners of death were somehow related to their on field results, which I found strange. Debate doesn’t have to be contentious, right? Trent King

[Carter08]

Clemente. Much cooler rookie card too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

Actually, if you read MY post #2, I was the first one who suggested the common perception of Roberto might be a bit higher than deserved. I don't see why this concept of a player possibly being overrated is so difficult for you. Or why you need to go on a sarcastic rant when nobody has suggested any of the players you named were not great. Anyhow, I don't need the aggravation, let me know if you want to discuss statistics in a dispassionate and objective way, otherwise have a nice evening.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

At least figure out how to use the Quote button before embarrassing yourself further.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- since you brought up the word “simplistic” and the notion of acting grown up, I’ll point out that you’ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You’ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up…people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there’s a fair chance you’re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the “E sports” comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can’t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I’m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

You don't even know what circular means (it is "parsing words" to be familiar with the dictionary, apparently), yet it is "mental self gratification" for me to be literate and know basic words. That isn't brilliance, it's a bare minimum. You're upset about a post that says Clemente is great and that it's a toss-up pick. Nobody is dogging on Clemente at all. Obviously "Great" and "overrated" are not a contradictory scale. I am aware what e-sports is, but there is no relevance to the subject.

I swear almost every thread has some dipshit just finding the stupidest hot take that can be made and doubling down on it. Like this clown who doesn't even know what a contradiction or circular logic is trying to correct an opinion statement that is neither. Could have said "I disagree" and made a rational case, but of course that's not what happens.