Players not yet eligible for the HOF

[molenick]

Fair enough. I'm not a big fan of Mattingly getting in (I think Hernandez should be in before him)...just that he was a very popular NY player and not a terrible candidate and that never got him over 30%.

I'm guessing Wright tops out in the 20s...the rate stats are good but not good enough to make up for the low counting stats. A Mets HOFer but not an MLB HOFer. Third base is under-represented, but Rolen is creeping up each year and Beltre is a lock.

[Svabinsky78]

Originally Posted by molenick

Fair enough. I'm not a big fan of Mattingly getting in (I think Hernandez should be in before him)...just that he was a very popular NY player and not a terrible candidate and that never got him over 30%.

I'm guessing Wright tops out in the 20s...the rate stats are good but not good enough to make up for the low counting stats. A Mets HOFer but not an MLB HOFer. Third base is under-represented, but Rolen is creeping up each year and Beltre is a lock.

Hernandez should be in....11 Gold Gloves, the most of any 1st baseman.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Svabinsky78

Hernandez should be in....11 Gold Gloves, the most of any 1st baseman.

And 162 homers.

If you start a 1B's HOF case talking about his defense, he doesn't belong.

[Svabinsky78]

Originally Posted by Tabe

And 162 homers.

If you start a 1B's HOF case talking about his defense, he doesn't belong.

11 Gold Gloves ...

60 WAR....

MVP...

Silver Sluggers

That's good enough for me ..

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Man maybe it's because I'm a Dodger fan but I'm certainly don't see Posey as a first ballot and have questions about him even making it. Even at a position that SHOULD have lower standards due to the physical demands of the job his totals are SO low. Not a lot of 1500 hit, 700 RBI, 600 Run, 150 HR guys in the hall even at catcher. A 44 career WAR doesn't impress much either. Great player, but not sure about HOF player.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Man maybe it's because I'm a Dodger fan but I'm certainly don't see Posey as a first ballot and have questions about him even making it. Even at a position that SHOULD have lower standards due to the physical demands of the job his totals are SO low. Not a lot of 1500 hit, 700 RBI, 600 Run, 150 HR guys in the hall even at catcher. A 44 career WAR doesn't impress much either. Great player, but not sure about HOF player.

What about Molina? His counting stats are all higher because he played a lot longer than Posey, but his WAR is actually a little lower at 42.1.

Catchers are definitely looked at differently than other positions so I think they both will eventually get in, but not necessarily on the first ballot.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Man maybe it's because I'm a Dodger fan but I'm certainly don't see Posey as a first ballot and have questions about him even making it.

He quit the game too early.

He had almost 200 million reasons to do so, but checking out of the game to go home and chill with the family while you're still healthy and productive isn't a great HOF look even if it's a totally rational decision.

[Svabinsky78]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

He quit the game too early.

He had almost 200 million reasons to do so, but checking out of the game to go home and chill with the family while you're still healthy and productive isn't a great HOF look even if it's a totally rational decision.

Isn't that what Koufax did?

And who knows if he was really or felt healthy.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Man maybe it's because I'm a Dodger fan but I'm certainly don't see Posey as a first ballot and have questions about him even making it. Even at a position that SHOULD have lower standards due to the physical demands of the job his totals are SO low. Not a lot of 1500 hit, 700 RBI, 600 Run, 150 HR guys in the hall even at catcher. A 44 career WAR doesn't impress much either. Great player, but not sure about HOF player.

I agree. Not many guys who played just 6 full seasons are in the Hall.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Svabinsky78

11 Gold Gloves ...

60 WAR....

MVP...

Silver Sluggers

That's good enough for me ..

He's one of those guys that WAR loves for no discernible reason. Ex: 1982. 7 homers, 72 runs, 413 slugging - and he gets a 4.6 WAR. That's not even a good season let alone nearly All-Star but WAR thinks it is.

Also, he was washed up at 35 and played just 12 full seasons.

If you like Hernandez, put in John Olerud, too.

[Svabinsky78]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's one of those guys that WAR loves for no discernible reason. Ex: 1982. 7 homers, 72 runs, 413 slugging - and he gets a 4.6 WAR. That's not even a good season let alone nearly All-Star but WAR thinks it is.

Also, he was washed up at 35 and played just 12 full seasons.

If you like Hernandez, put in John Olerud, too.

Olerud....3 GGs..... Hernandez 11.

I know people poo poo GGs when it comes to certain positions but I am of the opinion that unless you played that position in the pros, a person has no right to poo poo a GG at any position.

Olerud was great, as was Will Clark.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Svabinsky78

I know people poo poo GGs when it comes to certain positions but I am of the opinion that unless you played that position in the pros, a person has no right to poo poo a GG at any position.

If person has not done X, person cannot have negative opinion on X but can have a positive one.

This makes no sense.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's one of those guys that WAR loves for no discernible reason. Ex: 1982. 7 homers, 72 runs, 413 slugging - and he gets a 4.6 WAR. That's not even a good season let alone nearly All-Star but WAR thinks it is.

Also, he was washed up at 35 and played just 12 full seasons.

If you like Hernandez, put in John Olerud, too.

You love to cherry-pick the data. In 1982, Hernandez finished in the top 10 in the NL in batting average with .299 and was 3rd in the NL in on base percentage with .397. Schmidt led the majors with .403. Hernandez led the Majors with 19 intentional walks. His OPS was .810 and his OPS+ was 127. He was top 10 in the NL in doubles (33). He won a Gold Glove. This is how he accumulated WAR.

Olerud finished in top 10 in MVP voting once. Hernandez had 3 top 5 finishes including an MVP.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

You love to cherry-pick the data. In 1982, Hernandez finished in the top 10 in the NL in batting average with .299 and was 3rd in the NL in on base percentage with .397. Schmidt led the majors with .403. Hernandez led the Majors with 19 intentional walks. His OPS was .810 and his OPS+ was 127. He was top 10 in the NL in doubles (33). He won a Gold Glove. This is how he accumulated WAR.

Olerud finished in top 10 in MVP voting once. Hernandez had 3 top 5 finishes including an MVP.

It's not really cherry picking. There is no time or metric or era by which you can twist a 1B hitting .299 with 7 homers into being a good year. None. Go look at Al Oliver in 1982 and try and tell me that Hernandez was even close as WAR says he was.

And you, again, went right back to Gold Gloves. For a 1B. One of Olerud's greatest talents was eliminating errors from other players, something ignored by Gold Glove voters and dWAR. He consistently cut down throwing errors when joining teams. But, again, who cares? It's 1B. It's like bragging about Jim Kaat's Gold Gloves as a pitcher.

Olerud had essentially the same total WAR in nearly the same AB. He hit 18+ homers seven times - Hernandez did it once. Olerud led his league in OPS and OPS+ and hit .350 or higher twice. Hernandez never did any of that.

I don't think Olerud belongs in the Hall. Hernandez was a fine player who had an excellent career. But he doesn't belong in the Hall either.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's one of those guys that WAR loves for no discernible reason.

Rick Reuschel is in this club.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Rick Reuschel is in this club.

Bobby Grich.