Willie Mays

[Yoda]

I believe we can all agree (I know, this is Net 54) that Willie Mays is the greatest living ballplayer and certainly among the top 5 of all time. I know nothing more than he is 90+ and in good health and long may he continue to be so.
I have watching the price movements of his vintage cards for about a year and it is clear to me that the gap between Mantle and Willie's cards is shrinking. For example, in the current Premier Auction, or whatever they call it, there are 2 beautiful PSA7 1951 Bowman RC's of both. At the moment, Willie's bids are around 9k ahead of the Mick. Early days, but I have never seen that scenario before. Perhaps due his longevity collectors are beginning to realize what a fabulous player he was.
I actually had the pleasure of seeing Willie play in 1954 when my Dad took me to the old Polo Grounds for a game. He electrified the field.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I grew up in an AL city, Washington, but saw Willie at an all star game towards the end of his career. As a kid, it was a thrill.

[JollyElm]

Unfortunately, this is how I see it...

422. Mourning Track Power
Buying up cards of a very old former player, for the sole purpose of selling them at exorbitant prices on the gigantic bubble that will surely come after he passes away.

[Tyruscobb]

The price disparity between Mantle, Mays, and Aaron cards is crazy. One Mantle card typically costs more than the combined Mays and Aaron cards in the same year and grade. Most have Mays and Aaron ranked higher on all-time great lists, yet it’s almost a two-to-one price ratio with the lesser player having the most value. Obviously, there are several factors that contribute to this, and I understand them, but it’s still astonishing. I’ll personally take two cards and the better players over Mantle.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jollyelm

unfortunately, this is how i see it...

422. mourning track power
buying up cards of a very old former player, for the sole purpose of selling them at exorbitant prices on the gigantic bubble that will surely come after he passes away.

^^this^^

[jingram058]

This

[FrankWakefield]

Somewhere, on Net54, I posted something about Mays being the best ballplayer I ever saw play in person. I had not recognized that until I perused Bill James's Historical Baseball Abstract (I still think its best form is the original edition, hardbound). At that point, I reluctantly let go of the idea that it was Stan Musial (seen in one game in 1963 and thereby becoming a lifelong Cardinals fan), and that instead Willie Mays was better. I saw Mays play in the old Sportsman's Park, then the cookie cutter Busch Stadium, and also in Candlestick once. Willie was entertaining along with his greatness. He'd break late and slow on a ball close to him, he seemed to always catch the ball while moving. He could hit, hustle, run bases, drive in runs, he was a force out there. I have a handful of his cards from his playing days. None are mint nor near mint, they're maybe VG-EX... A couple I collected as a kid, I think the rest were gathered after he was voted into the Hall.

George Davis is a subject in the T206's. In the late 1980's I was looking through the T206 lists, and I realized Davis wasn't in the Hall. But to me it seemed like he should be, and that maybe one day he would be. I think I bought 2 of his cards, and then waited. And he got elected!!! I sold one maybe 2 or 3 years later. And then I sold the other a few years later when I sold almost all of my white border cards.

Point is, I've bought cards anticipating someone getting elected into the Hall. But I've not bought any cards anticipating someone would die. I'd not thought about that before, and I'm sure people will buy cards anticipating that, but I don't think I will be doing that.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I grew up in an AL city, Washington, but saw Willie at an all star game towards the end of his career. As a kid, it was a thrill.

Th only time I saw him was in 72 or 73 I believe? I'd have to check ticket stubs and box scores. I went to every Sunday day game at Dodger Game with my Grandfather from 71-76. Field Level, row 4 behind the dugout looking up the 3rd baseline.

I'll always remember my Grand Pa turned to me and whispered, "That's Willie Mays". Pointing him out as if I needed to know who he was for some reason. (Like he did the day they retired the big 3-Dodger's numbers and I sat next to Casey Stengel). I remember Mays dropped a fly ball in center and got picked off first base that day, LOL.

I read somewhere he only dropped 2 fly balls in his career. I have been truly blessed in this life. Good times.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Th only time I saw him was in 72 or 73 I believe? I'd have to check ticket stubs and box scores. I went to every Sunday day game at Dodger Game with my Grandfather from 71-76. Field Level, row 4 behind the dugout looking up the 3rd baseline.

I'll always remember my Grand Pa turned to me and whispered, "That's Willie Mays". Pointing him out as if I needed to know who he was for some reason. (Like he did the day they retired the big 3-Dodger's numbers and I sat next to Casey Stengel). I remember Mays dropped a fly ball in center and got picked off first base that day, LOL.

I read somewhere he only dropped 2 fly balls in his career. I have been truly blessed in this life. Good times.

That’s amazing. Reminds me of when I went to see Ripken in Camden with my family when I was a kid. We are from Rochester which was the longtime AAA affiliate of the Orioles so my brother loved Cal. He went 0-3 through the first 6 innings, all bad looking strikeouts. My dad, not a baseball fan, said they pay this guy how much?!? Well sure enough the got up in the 9th and just killed one. I still remember the crack of his bat. Sounded powerful.

[egri]

I've posted this here before, but my only Mays:

[IMG] [/IMG]

[bnorth]

Here is my newest addition. At one time I had the Topps playing days run minus the 1952 in lower grade. On my list he is 5th behind Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, and Babe Ruth.

[Jersey City Giants]

My father saw him play in Trenton before he got called up. Said he was the best player he ever saw play. Plus when Ty Cobb was old he said he was the only player he would pay to see. Those two opinions are good enough for me!

[JollyElm]

Love this one...

1971toppsgreatestmomentsmays.jpg


Created this one...

1972williemaystraded07.jpg


Grabbed these ones recently*...

1967mays1969mays.jpg


*Pardon the grammar.

[Svabinsky78]

There are just some players that get more hobby love than others........Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Speaker, Mathewson, Walter J, Clemente, Gehrig, Ted Williams, Koufax.....

There are some baffling examples though of greats who don't get as much hobby love as they really deserve....the most glaring example to me is Frank Robinson....he truly was one of the great players of the game (check out his HR, hit, RBI totals) yet his cards can be picked up on the cheap, relative to his contemporaries.....which is great for collectors

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I have watching the price movements of his vintage cards for about a year and it is clear to me that the gap between Mantle and Willie's cards is shrinking.

This is purely anecdotal, but it seems like there is a growing separation between Mays and Aaron as well. In my memory they used to be on par, but it feels like Mays draws a premium over Aaron in most sets.

I think there are a couple of factors with Mays closing the gap on Mantle. Advanced stats have given us a better appreciate for how good Mays was (and specifically how much better than Mantle he was over the course of their careers). I also think the population who grew up idolizing Mantle are aging out of the hobby or dying off. Younger collectors don't have direct memory of either player, and largely rely on the numbers to decide who to collect and how to value them.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by skelly423

This is purely anecdotal, but it seems like there is a growing separation between Mays and Aaron as well. In my memory they used to be on par, but it feels like Mays draws a premium over Aaron in most sets.

I think there are a couple of factors with Mays closing the gap on Mantle. Advanced stats have given us a better appreciate for how good Mays was (and specifically how much better than Mantle he was over the course of their careers). I also think the population who grew up idolizing Mantle are aging out of the hobby or dying off. Younger collectors don't have direct memory of either player, and largely rely on the numbers to decide who to collect and how to value them.

I can tell you two things Mays didn't do. Hit a homer in the World Series or win a Triple Crown.

[Jcosta19]

A little off topic compared to the price talk but I am a lifelong Yankees fan and my father grew up right outside NYC in the Mantle days.

I always considered Mays top 4 all time but
It is only very recently I've come to appreciate what an amazing player he really was.

It was this past year that I realized he actually missed all but 20ish games in his 2nd and what would have been 3rd years in the Majors due to the Korean War. He hit 41 home runs his 1st season back.
With that missing time he very easily could have eclipsed 714.
How did I not know that and how is it not talked about more?

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

A little off topic compared to the price talk but I am a lifelong Yankees fan and my father grew up right outside NYC in the Mantle days.

I always considered Mays top 4 all time but
It is only very recently I've come to appreciate what an amazing player he really was.

It was this past year that I realized he actually missed all but 20ish games in his 2nd and what would have been 3rd years in the Majors due to the Korean War. He hit 41 home runs his 1st season back.
With that missing time he very easily could have eclipsed 714.
How did I not know that and how is it not talked about more?

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You should go back and see what other players missed out on due to WWII. Names like Feller and Spahn, and even Ted Williams. In fact, Williams was one of the few people to actively serve in both WWII and the Korean War. He effectively missed about 4 years of his career serving in the military.

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by BobC

You should go back and see what other players missed out on due to WWII. Names like Feller and Spahn, and even Ted Williams. In fact, Williams was one of the few people to actively serve in both WWII and the Korean War. He effectively missed about 4 years of his career serving in the military.

I'm well aware of the WWII guys, Feller, Dimaggio, and especially Williams double service.

Williams in particular is mentioned often as having lost time to the wars often in boards, mainstream media etc. I personally just don't recall hearing Mays mentioned in the same way (not in my era anyway).

Was just surprised about that considering he was in striking distance of the all time HR record.

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[Casey2296]

One of my favorite cards, the image is art.
_

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

One of my favorite cards, the image is art.
_

It is a beautiful card. I am having a piece of artwork of that card being made now.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

One of my favorite cards, the image is art.
_

Wow that is one outstanding example. So hard to find centered that well.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I'm well aware of the WWII guys, Feller, Dimaggio, and especially Williams double service.

Williams in particular is mentioned often as having lost time to the wars often in boards, mainstream media etc. I personally just don't recall hearing Mays mentioned in the same way (not in my era anyway).

Was just surprised about that considering he was in striking distance of the all time HR record.

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I think folks are aware of it but you're right, from what I remember, that it's not mentioned as often as the Williams time lost due to service. And I always thought the almost universal conventional wisdom was that Mays was the all-time #2 greatest, just behind Ruth. Surprised to see that some folks didn't necessarily think that.

[GasHouseGang]

It just occurred to me that Willie Mays isn't in the 1953 Bowman set. Does anyone know why he wasn't included? He is in the 1952 Bowman and the 1954 Bowman. What happened in 1953?

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

I think folks are aware of it but you're right, from what I remember, that it's not mentioned as often as the Williams time lost due to service. And I always thought the almost universal conventional wisdom was that Mays was the all-time #2 greatest, just behind Ruth. Surprised to see that some folks didn't necessarily think that.

I think 2 is probably right because of his defense. But lots of prewar collectors like Cobb and put him higher.

And boy are Hank Aaron's offensive numbers hard to argue with.

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I'm well aware of the WWII guys, Feller, Dimaggio, and especially Williams double service.

Williams in particular is mentioned often as having lost time to the wars often in boards, mainstream media etc. I personally just don't recall hearing Mays mentioned in the same way (not in my era anyway).

Was just surprised about that considering he was in striking distance of the all time HR record.

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My bad then, wasn't sure you were aware of how many players had missed time for military service.

[NYYFan63]

Here are a couple of my favorite






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[ValKehl]

Lots of nice looking Mays' cards in this thread, but this is his best looking card ever:

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Lots of nice looking Mays' cards in this thread, but this is his best looking card ever:

Wow Val, that's a great card, and a tough one. All those Hires Test cards are tough.

[MuncieNolePAZ]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Lots of nice looking Mays' cards in this thread, but this is his best looking card ever:

Really cool Mays Val!

Chad

[Neal]

My favorite Mays

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[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I believe we can all agree (I know, this is Net 54) that Willie Mays is the greatest living ballplayer and certainly among the top 5 of all time. I know nothing more than he is 90+ and in good health and long may he continue to be so.
I have watching the price movements of his vintage cards for about a year and it is clear to me that the gap between Mantle and Willie's cards is shrinking. For example, in the current Premier Auction, or whatever they call it, there are 2 beautiful PSA7 1951 Bowman RC's of both. At the moment, Willie's bids are around 9k ahead of the Mick. Early days, but I have never seen that scenario before. Perhaps due his longevity collectors are beginning to realize what a fabulous player he was.
I actually had the pleasure of seeing Willie play in 1954 when my Dad took me to the old Polo Grounds for a game. He electrified the field.

So I think this thread started because of a comparison of 1951 Bowman Mantle and Mays Rookies in PWCC's February Premier Auction?

The PSA 7 Mantle ended up selling for $96K and the Mays for $60K. Not sure if that constitutes a narrowing of any historical gap between the two cards, but at a more than 50% premium for the Mantle, there is obviously still quite a gap.
I believe the populations of both cards are similar. Maybe the gap will get closer some day given that most people think Mays was one of the two best players ever, and many don't have Mantle in the top 10.

[Yoda]

Charles, I was the original author of this post and I have to agree that the price level at the finishing line shows Mantle the clear winner...again. Perhaps what I was seeing was an aberration in the early auction bidding. Willie is the sprinter and Mickey is the finisher.

[MattyC]

Many guys in our 40s and 30s who never saw him play still buy Mantle. When we entered the hobby, the 52T Mantle had a mystique and status that will never change— and that card became a gateway of sorts that led many of us to look into his life and accomplishments, as well as his other cards. Then there are Yankee fan collectors who will always be interested in cards of Yankee legends. The notion that as people who saw him play die, his cards will become less desirable, it seems specious at best, especially in light of how cards of many long dead players still have expensive, desirable cards— Mathewson, Shoeless Joe, the list goes on. But ultimately, one can sit around waiting years and years for some puerile price competition between Mantle and Mays to play out, or one can collect what they want to own in the present, whichever athlete that is.

[cgjackson222]

In REA's auction last night a '51 Bowman Mays SGC 3 sold for $24,600, almost $7K higher than a '51 Bowman Mantle PSA 4.

Strong price for the Mays, which sold for higher than a'51 Bowman Mays SGC 6 in the same auction, and a relatively weak price for the Mantle. Not sure if this is just an outlier, or if Mays is actually closing the gap with Mantle, but you don't see a Mays Rookie outsell a Mantle of a higher grade often.

[h2oya311]

At first glance and without fully inspecting the card, that Mays “3” looks like an “8” and the Mantle “4” looks like, well, a “4”. So not entirely an apples-to-apples in this “case”.

[Bpm0014]

Mays game used bat I recently purchased. Adirondack. Mid to late 60’s.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

In REA's auction last night a '51 Bowman Mays SGC 3 sold for $24,600, almost $7K higher than a '51 Bowman Mantle PSA 4.

Strong price for the Mays, which sold for higher than a'51 Bowman Mays SGC 6 in the same auction, and a relatively weak price for the Mantle. Not sure if this is just an outlier, or if Mays is actually closing the gap with Mantle, but you don't see a Mays Rookie outsell a Mantle of a higher grade often.

Someone is gonna work some magic and get this into a 6 or better holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Someone is gonna work some magic and get this into a 6 or better holder.

Yeah would like to see the bidder IDs on that one.

[Fuddjcal]

Wow, nice Willie card last night

[packs]

My lone Willie:

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I believe we can all agree (I know, this is Net 54) that Willie Mays is the greatest living ballplayer and certainly among the top 5 of all time. I know nothing more than he is 90+ and in good health and long may he continue to be so.
I have watching the price movements of his vintage cards for about a year and it is clear to me that the gap between Mantle and Willie's cards is shrinking. For example, in the current Premier Auction, or whatever they call it, there are 2 beautiful PSA7 1951 Bowman RC's of both. At the moment, Willie's bids are around 9k ahead of the Mick. Early days, but I have never seen that scenario before. Perhaps due his longevity collectors are beginning to realize what a fabulous player he was.
I actually had the pleasure of seeing Willie play in 1954 when my Dad took me to the old Polo Grounds for a game. He electrified the field.

I saw him once, he got 4 hits and two home runs. !967. He was a player, he got knocked down once or twice every at bat, just got up and hit the ball.

[Bigdaddy]

A couple of my favorite Mays: